I think westerman's game has suffered from him not being in a settled position and also our lack of playmakers. Once galea and tickle go I hope he gets a settled run in the 2nd row and some decent ball from a settled half back pairing. That's when we'll see how good he can be. I think some fans probably don't see what he does do because we see the odd flash of brilliance and they expect it all of the time. He'll mature into a much better 2nd rower than tickle IMO and he's only about 23 so still has many years in front of him.

By his own high standards, I think whiting has been below average so far this season but he has been playing all over the place and is another one who will look better if we can have a period of less injuries

There's always someone mouthing off at games. Someone that sits behind me can be full of praise one minute for a player and then as soon as they make a mistake they start saying they're the worst player ever to wear the black and white shirt.

Wow - and it's claimed Westerman has no recognition



Whiting doesn't play the full 80 which is why his stats on things like metres and tackles are likely to be lower - just a thought. It may also be a contributor the other way against Westerman - perhaps he could do to be spelled a bit more then his large error and penalty count may fall.

A key indicator for Westerman this season will be whether or not he gets in the frame for England at the end of the year. I hope he does as it will mean that he's had a good season for us. At the moment I doubt he's close but it could change.

See above re stats which will reflect game time.

I don't like the errors stat, what does it mean, in what context? Maybe Westerman makes more errors as he tries more offloads and attempts to be creative? Not saying that's the case but that's the issue we don't know what these errors are or where they occurred. If the errors are on opponents line they don't hurt us. If it's in our half they do.

I like Whiting but he's not been his usual consistent self for me this season.

I don't think Westerman is consistent at all which is one of his biggest problems. He had an absolute mare against KR last week for example. Only Horne and Whiting emerged with any credit from that game. Regarding the error stat I don't actually place too much stock on any stat I prefer instead to watch the game myself and make up my own mind. That said it didn't come as any surprise to me at all that Westy was top of the errors when I checked it out because it's how I'd seen the season so far. Same with Yeamo who puts a stack of ball down particularly near the opposition line.

No one will be more pleased than me if Westy gets himself into the international reckoning as Tickle has done. He will have to be better and without a shadow of a doubt more consistent if he is to do it though.

I'd rather have Westy than Tickle. England recognition means little to me. Lynch never got any real international recognition but he's been a great prop.

Oh aye. And I've said before that stats are open to interpretation anyway as it's not clear how some of them are assembled. But when there is a clear difference across the board then it's generally a reliable indicator. IMO it also backs up what I've seen in the games so far, the Derby excepted.

Quite possible. If Westerman is averaging 80 minutes (although it is definitely lower than this, he has been subbed a few times this year) and Whiting somewhere between 50-60 those particular stats even out a bit more. But it's the fact that Westerman is averaging more metres per carry and has a higher tackle completion rate that sticks out to me. This suggests that despite doing more work than Whiting (not a criticism of Whiting, just the way things currently are) and the fatigue factor that brings, he's still doing it to a higher standard.

I'm not meaning to sound like I'm complaining about Whiting, I think he's one of the most valuable members of our squad. I just strongly disagree with the claim that he has been better than Westerman this year, and that this is saying things how you see them. If that really is how you see things I think you may have some bias you don't realise affecting you.

Pretty much agree with comments, IMO Westy has been a big dissapointment since signing, has the odd outstanding game but generally been mediocre, has the enthusiasm, vocal with other players etc but for me its not really happened for him in a B&W shirt

Again I disagree, and largely with your own reasoning. The very reason Westerman has been probably our best forward is because he's been our most consistent. He was poor against Rovers (whilst not playing in the forwards), and mediocre against Widnes (which still had him as one of our best). Other than that he's been impressive every single game. If you're valuing consistency, then this season I really don't see how any forward can come out better than Westerman, he's had the least amount of dips in performance level of all of them.

I know I'm coming back to it, but only because you mentioned Whiting as being better, and his consistency has been all over the place in comparison (massively out of character for him). He was poor against Leeds, ordinary against Bradford, less than great against Wire, poor against Widnes. I also partly disagree about the derby. He was definitely better than Westerman, but as I said at the time I still don't think he played well. He got involved a lot and tried hard, but the quality of his work still lacked badly, particularly his kicking. I don't blame him for one minute though.

Totally agree. The derby is the only game this year where I think Westerman has been outright bad. Every other he's been at least one of our best forwards, if not one of our best players overall.

that's a new one. It's an opinion which I'm happy to stick with and as I've said many times I would be delighted if he played well enough to be selected internationally. You had Lynch in your 'list of players to drop' earlier in the season for example - we saw how well that went when he missed KR due to illness. Nonetheless it was your opinion and I don't believe you are 'biased' against him subconsciously or otherwise.

When fans are leaving the KC and the talk at the exits is what a great forward Westerman is and how he has led the pack and influenced the game that will be the time when I know he is playing well and he is as good as some on here make out. Look how Ben Westwood is viewed in the game or Sean O'Loughlin. Those are top players in Westy's position. I really hope he gets to those levels while in a black and white shirt but there's no sign of it since he joined. That's nothing to do with stats or opinion that's just fact. Same goes for any other second rower by the way.

Don't think anyone's been comparing Westerman with O'Loughlin or Westwood. Or even touting him for international honours. Not that I put too much weight on the latter TBH given the often mysterious selection policy of English coaches. He's simply been compared against other forwards in our pack and Whiting specifically.

I'm also not that bothered who fans talk about at the exits to the KC.

Actually my post originally compared him to Lynch and Whiting when replying to a claim he's been our best forward. So you're completely wrong to say it was 'specifically Whiting' as it wasn't. Someone else picked up on the Whiting bit and ignored the Lynch bit. As for international selection I would much rather have a team full of internationals than not and the teams that provide the vast bulk of England players are also the teams who are successful and win things like Super League and the Challenge Cup. So I'll put a bit more weight on that than you and I'll suggest that overall being an international is a good thing. I mentioned international selection because we currently have a second rower in that set up and again the original claim was that Westy had been our best forward. I perfectly reasonably implied that were he at that level he might expect to be in the set up too which he isn't even being talked about as far as I know



The implication was that I've not really heard anyone raving about Westy despite the claim he's been consistently our best forward. Don't think he's landed a MOM for a long time and by all accounts he hasn't been voted player of the month by his peers either. These were things I was throwing in as possible evidence that his performances haven't been as good as some have made out. I think you probably knew what I meant though.

Fair enough. The bit of the conversation I was involved in revolved around Whiting - must have speed read the rest.


I'm a bit more cynical about the reasoning behind England selections than you are. But then I'm an old cynic. I'm certainly not suggesting that Westerman has been unfairly passed over or anything of the sort.


I did know what you meant. And my comment was meant to indicate that I don't put too much weight on who gets raved about as you regularly see and hear some very odd opinions of players. Everyone tends to see a different game.

I've also not made claims about Westerman being our best forward. Or even expressed an opinion on his capability in general. I've commented on him in comparison to Whiting because I happened to have an opinion on that particular comparison and had seen some stats that were relevant. I rate him more highly than you do (as you know) but not as highly as some. Firmly on the fence, me.

He certainly was bigged up after his breakthrough season in 2007. Fair to say he's not fully delivered on the potential discussed here in the way Burgess has, but perhaps the expectations were inflated. The biggest transfer fee paid by the club in a decade, I'd guess, I think that compounded an expectation he'd be more of a direct/playmaking force than he's been, but for me he's a handy backrower, better played wide rather than through the middle. www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... e_Burgess/

He certainly was bigged up after his breakthrough season in 2007. Fair to say he's not fully delivered on the potential discussed here in the way Burgess has, but perhaps the expectations were inflated. The biggest transfer fee paid by the club in a decade, I'd guess, I think that compounded an expectation he'd be more of a direct/playmaking force than he's been, but for me he's a handy backrower, better played wide rather than through the middle. www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... e_Burgess/

I think people sticking with an opinion is sometimes a factor. An opinion is reached, and then stuck with even when circumstances change. Whiting has been consistently excellent for us in his years with us, but this season hasn't been one of them so far. I'm honestly amazed that you think he's been better than Westerman. He's not been in our top 5 forwards IMO, even Galea has been better than him the last couple of weeks and I've been very critical of him.

As for Lynch, that's the second time you've used the derby as some sort of proof that his form earlier in the season was somehow good. Cheap and flawed. 1) His absence was not the reason our pack was b*tch-slapped by Rovers. 2) I wasn't calling for him to be dropped at that time, I was asking why earlier in the season his position hadn't seemed to be under threat (my opinion is that his form picked up around the Widnes/Hudds games, but in the opening 3 games he was well below his usual standard. I still don't think he's reached last year's form, though), particularly with the impending return of Watts. I stand by that. 3) He wasn't the only player I singled out as being potentially dropped, or even my number 1 candidate. I was asking why NONE of several underperforming players had been dropped, including him. We had been making no changes to players not playing well. But you see that's how I think it should work, earlier in the season I thought he wasn't playing well and was even one of our weaker forwards, so his place should have been under threat. Now I don't think that, as his last few performances have been better. I haven't just decided after the first few games have been disappointing and stuck with that opinion for the rest of the year.



Where have I said Westerman is great? I've said that I think he's been our best forward this year, and specifically better than your claim of Whiting. I also agree with Kosh, what people say coming out of the ground is largely irrelevant. Firstly, the bulk of that tends to be complaints at the moment, and secondly, it still comes back to bias. I've heard very few people giving Horne praise coming out of the grounds this season either, but he's clearly been one of our best. Another great example is Manu. The last few years he's been absolute sh*te and lazy according to those around me in the stand, never received a single word of credit. He's improved a hell of a lot since he's gone according to those same people though, as we miss him massively.

I didn't pick up on Lynch because I didn't think it was as outlandish a claim as Whiting. Over the last month there's possibly a case for Lynch (as there possibly is for Watts and maybe even Galea too the last few weeks, although I'd still tip Westerman), but not over the season IMO.

With your international selection reasoning, I have a question: Has Briscoe's form been better than Lineham's? England selection is not purely about how you are playing right now. Maybe it should be, but it isn't. We have 2 second rowers in the England squad, one hasn't played a game yet, and the other has had even less mention as our best forward than Westerman. In fact earlier in this thread there are a few suggestions that him leaving at the end of this year will be a good move.



Only 2 players have been voted POTM by the Hull squad, both backs. Not sure what bearing that has on a discussion about Westerman's standing in our forwards and how his peers view him, TBH.

Forget it pal - subconsciously biased and cheap and flawed. Oh and stuck in an opinion. It's like arguing with Standee.

Ouch, that's a bit below the belt.

The subconscious bias wasn't meant with any malice, I just genuinely think it's a possibility. As you yourself said, you try to call as you see it and usually I really believe that is the case. That's why I said I'm amazed you think Whiting's been better than Westerman, I wouldn't have expected you to.

Cheap and flawed was because using the derby to ridicule an opinion held about Lynch's form several games beforehand felt like a cheap shot.

Here's a funny thing - Daniel Holdsworth is tweeting about The Voice again. He's in Australia, isn't he?

Did he like the Welsh fella?

Yes that's right Gentle and Hay were sat next to a hologram at Belle View