I do rate Horne, just think to have a running back like him, we need to have a play making 13. If not we will be were we are now still, Long will not play every game next year, nor will most players in the league.

I also remember Horne been the best player in the league for the first five games this year. My post was not who i want rid of, just who i definatley dont want to leave.

I know what you're saying re: Horne & Raynor, its not as ludicrous to say that as some think. But while I'm seriously up for a major clearout of the squad's deadwood, we don't want to be in a position of completely starting again with the squad. With this in mind, I think the two in question more than deserve to stay.

7 going, and there among them

1. Sleazy
2. Sleepy
3. Dopey
4. Dick
5. Crappy
6. Bashed up
7. Drunky

And the 1 already out makes 8

R Horne has a large amount of his wages taken off the cap due to being here 10 years, so is technically cheap in salary cap terms, hence why FC can "afford" to pay him more

thought you said berrigan was staying?

So some people on here would release
R Horne
Berrigan
Rayner
If that was released to the press tomorrow there would be a queue of super league coaches at the KC ready to snap all three up.
After 10 years does Rich not have the right to a dip in form after his health problems, his tackling has saved this club over the seasons, STS/LEEDS would have used him more for his attacking abilities rather than defence like Hull.
Berrigan=class
Horne and Raynor would be scoring tries for fun at certain other clubs,
Raynor outside of Gidley imagine it, awesome

I could play outside of Gidley and look awesome

Briscoe IS NOT A WINGER he is a centre so why people would Raynor go is beyond me and Richard Horne is having a bad time of it but he is still one of our top players for me I would keep
Tansey
Raynor
Hall
Briscoe
Yeaman
Calderwood
R.Horne
Berrigan
Houghton
Lauaki
Manu
Washbrook
Moa
The rest I wouldn't be bothered if they went.

Totally agree. If anything, I think it's the opposite of what Big Dave is saying. He's not being lauded regardless of performance when he's not producing, he's actually not producing consistently and being judged more harshly for it because of his record. FWIW I still think he's been better than Lee in the hooking position this year. Lee has had a consistent, but average at best, season. Berrigan has had 1 or 2 poor games, mostly average, but a few good ones as well, with moments of real quality sprinkled in there.

The fact that he's so far ahead of his teammates is actually holding him back in a way, as at times he heads towards a gap, turns to find the runner, and there's nobody there so he ends up ambling into the tackle and looking like he's made an error. It's like when a good footballer pulls of a great ball but his teammate hasn't read it so it trickles out of play; the quality player looks bad, but it was the limitations of his colleague that caused it.

My main recollection of Berrigan this year is of him making the half break and having nobody there to finish it off. Then there are moments like the jink and offload to Cordoba against Celtic and his slice through the defence in the first derby, things not one of our other players have looked like even being capable of.

It could quite as easily be asked what has Lee done over the season that has been better than Berrigan?

Don't get me wrong, Lee has had a decent season, but I'd rather have a player who has proven he's got the class to be outstanding when the team allow him (even in a Hull shirt IMO, contrary to what you're saying. He's just not done it every week, but he has still done it at times), rather than someone who can simply do a job adequately.

Which is where I think you're being unfair. No matter how world class a player, they will only shine consistently when the team around them and the coaching enable it, particularly when their role is a creative one reliant on using those around them. It's not like he's the sort who's there to break the line and go the length of the pitch, or to break tackles and offload consistently, he's simply not got the tools around him to do his job properly.

You've said he should still look like a champ and not a chump, but in flashes he has. But no single player can make a gap out of nothing on his own every game. You accuse others of protecting him because of his reputation, but in your case you're making him pay the price for it.

If our personnel and tactics stay the same for next year, I fear you'll view Long in much the same way.

Excellent point. In fact it's ironic that when Swain was here we used to play the kind of rugby that would have seen Berrigan shine, whereas with the current 'tactics' Swain would be far more suitable.

The fact that his wages don't fully count on the cap doesn't mean the money magically appears from somewhere, the club still has to make the money in the first place.

I like Rich, he is a great guy and has been a good servant to the club, but if he doesn't recapture some form and confidence then we may need to look elsewhere, he has so many issues against him this season mind.

This is a good point, well made in a fair and balanced way. I agree with everything in it... I feel a bit dizzy.... particularly the part that FC may need to look elsewhere (I believe there is no room for sentiment) - and also the fact that they ought to take his current issues into account (before acting too hastily).

Rich is contracted to 2011, he'll still only be 29, we just need to find his natural position and play him in it.

yes, and although I think that his condition may well be having an effect, I also think the whole set-up is affecting things: Agar's inexperience, injuries, playing in several positions, low confidence because of poor personal perfoemances (from one of our erstwhile most consistent performers) etc.

Agar's ineptitude
Playing behind a beaten pack
Playing with fellow "professionals" that don't give a to55, or have the right attitude.
Diabetes
Loss of weight
Playing outside Thorman

Maybe i am being unfair, and if our tactics stay the same next year and Long looks inconsistent i will have the same opinions. Tactics or not, beaten pack or not, world class players like Long and Berro should look like doing something every time they touch the ball. One or two glimpses a game from Berro just isnt enough and thats where im coming from. No excuses, he has been far worse than he should have and could have been for us. I cant wait to see him play next year behind a better pack and better tactics hopefully and im sure i will, it still doesnt stop me being disappointed with his last 2 years though.

I'm sorry, I just can't agree with that at all. It's not a one-man game, nobody can look like doing something every time they touch the ball. They can try and do something every time they have the chance, but they can't produce out of nothing without input from those around them. IMO Berrigan does look capable of making something happen most times he touches the ball, but when he looks around there simply aren't the right options available to him.

It's often said that real quality players produce when it counts and make the most of opportunities, and personally I think that's much closer to the truth (and what Berrigan has largely done in his time here) than to say they have to look great every match from start to finish.

It's also particularly difficult when a player is the only danger in the team, as the opposition base a lot of their game around stopping that individual. Who else do we have that teams need to watch? Berrigan and Manu are pretty much marked men in our side these last 2 years, that's another reason why they're not always effective.

I think all of us fans have been disappointed with the last 2 years, but I think it's unfair that you seem to be reserving more for Berrigan on the basis that he is a better player. The issue is more about those around him than what he is doing.

And the suggestion that Lee is playing better than him is way off IMO, perhaps just an OTT way to support your stance. Lee is playing better this year than he has in previous years, but he is still not amongst our best players in ability or form, whereas Berrigan is in at least one of those categories.

Motu
G.Horne
Thorman
Thackray
King
Lee
Maloney

Those wanting to bin Berrigan are even odder and clearly have serious deficiences when evaluating a players abilities.

agree with both observations, of the three, goodby Mr Lee.