I think there is a bigger picture here with what's happening at Wigan currently; rotation v a best 17.

It's very early days, it looks as if Wane is looking at a squad rotation policy, which if effective will be outstanding as each play will player fewer games and be fit and ready for the business end of the season.

On the opposite side of the debate many successful teams, especially in Aus play their best week in week out, naturally with this option playing together becomes second nature, each player by the end of the season which know each other so well, mistakes and mis-communication will be limited, however players risk burn out.

If you look at the signings it could be argued that Wane is building 2 Wigan teams, by having two 13s (give or take) he can rotate and rest his players meaning they'll last longer and be fitter for the playoffs and cup matches, basically looking after the players.

Wigan are a very regimented structured team, no matter in what 'Wigan team' you play at what level, you play the same way, do the same thing, same moves, same drills, so in theory if you slot into the halves alongside Matty Smith it will be the same as slotting in alongside Powell or Green. Meaning the team should always look structured.

Currently this isn't working, as of yet, and it's evident in the ball movement and drills, but it might as the 'teams' play together.

My concern is Lockers. I don't see a like for like with anyone else, when he doesn't play Wane likes to play Flower at 13, who plays as a third prop, he doesn't have the same abilities/game. Also without Lockers there's a lack of leadership and seniority which is needed when the going gets tough.

My second concern is the lack of 'spark' or individual brilliance in a team so structured. You can't go outside of the box as your team mates won't know whats going on. I feel this has been a criticism of our team, Leeds and Wire both can play exciting rugby off the cuff which leaves the defences guessing as it's very unpredictable.

So Hampshire v Bowen? We're lucky we have both. And a good squad, I see Wanes thinking, we lost many games at the back end of the season, wouldn't it be better to be able to win those games and still rest top players? Hence strengthening the squad.

It's an interesting discussion.

When you play the best 17 - players know where they stand and have to play well to keep their place.

Now, SW got loads of stick in his first season by burning the players out by the time of the playoffs, so last season he started to rotate which worked.

However we now have a problem because there are so many players who are of similar standard in the squad that we no longer have players "who pick themselves" like George Carmont, Pat Richards, Thomas Leuleui, Harrison Hanson and so on.

So, SW needs time to find his best team and then he will probably stop the rotation IMO. He needs to decide on a left centre. He needs to decide on a full back and then who his best forwards are. And he needs to decide what Bateman's best position is. I think he is definately in the best 17 or even 13 but is he too small for second row? Can he play 13 (when Lockers is out), or can he play left centre?

Yeah he needs to know his best 13/17, I think so far our only indication of that is the WCC, as he had to play his best to compete.

I think we'll see squad rotation throughout the season with him playing his best when needs must.

I don't think this works. I think it is bound to be the case that while they will know the drills different players are going to be half a yard out or whatever in their positioning. Things like that.

Overall I think Wane needs to be very careful about sticking a different team out each week. There has to be some understanding of what you can expect from your team mates and some continuity or I think it will breed a lack of confidence and a real safety first attitude.

And will make what you say below more likely:



Your comment above reminded me of Trent Barrett throwing Noble's game plan out of the window to mastermind that famous victory v Bradford. I don't think an individual deciding Plan A isn't working trying something different is going to cause the team problems provided that the team has some grey matter between their ears and is alert. Hampshire seems to be the most likely player to take a game on in this way.

Good discussion point.
After yesterday's game I was left thinking that this team is "playing itself in".
Like a batsman in cricket.
A lot of changes are through injury as Goulding and Lockers were missing yesterday. Playing Thornley at 3 didn't work but I couldn't understand why Gelling wasn't played there when he played at 3 v Wakey. Sarginson and Burgess defensively couldn't cope early doors and they scored at will down our left defence. Why wasn't Thornley played at 4? After all he played there last season and has been given the 4 shirt.
Squad rotation or best 17 I believe players should play in ther best positons, we are still playing players out of possition and that isn't working.
This just emphasises that we don't have a sub for Lockers. I'd hoped it might have been Hopkins but that hasn't worked out as yet. Clubb was tried there one game but he's far better at prop.
Hampshire is always mentioned but where would he be played?
Bowen was far better yesterday and he got some rough treatment from the Cas forwards. Green was poor, there's no Powell so would Rocky be played at 6 where he'd be run at for 80 mins?
Whichever system is used I do think players should be played in their own positions.

I guess SW sees Sarginson and Burgess as his current first choice 4 and 5, so wanted to keep them together. Some centres can cope with being switched to the other side of the field and others can't, it's an entirely different skill set. Cudjoe for example looks excellent playing 3 for Hudds then looks unnatural and awkward playing 4 for England, this seemed to be the case with Thornley yesterday.

I'd like to see us try Bateman at 13 when Lockers isn't available. He has good hands so should still be able to give us a link from LF rather than just a 3rd prop if Flower or Clubb plays there. We really need a SR with a bit of size, Farrell, Hughes and Bateman are all too similar IMO. It's unbelievable to think of the amount of strength in depth in SR we had a couple of seasons ago compared to now! There was a point in 2011 when we had Farrell, Hansen, Hock and Hoffman with Joel Tomkins playing in the centres and Tuson in reserve!

The one player who I think needs a rest or sending out on loan/dual reg at the moment is Dom Crosby. He isn't making the metres necessary to trouble defences and got bullied yesterday.I know he's only young for a prop but I feel he needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while. Just check the stats. at the bottom of the page. www.superleague.co.uk/report/9932 The penalties (10 - 6) and errors (15 - 7) killed us. Give any decent team so much ball and you will suffer. We actually made more metres and more breaks.

The one player who I think needs a rest or sending out on loan/dual reg at the moment is Dom Crosby. He isn't making the metres necessary to trouble defences and got bullied yesterday.I know he's only young for a prop but I feel he needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while. Just check the stats. at the bottom of the page. www.superleague.co.uk/report/9932 The penalties (10 - 6) and errors (15 - 7) killed us. Give any decent team so much ball and you will suffer. We actually made more metres and more breaks.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"The one player who I think needs a rest or sending out on loan/dual reg at the moment is Dom Crosby. He isn't making the metres necessary to trouble defences and got bullied yesterday.I know he's only young for a prop but I feel he needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while. Just check the stats. at the bottom of the page. www.superleague.co.uk/report/9932 The penalties (10 - 6) and errors (15 - 7) killed us. Give any decent team so much ball and you will suffer. We actually made more metres and more breaks.'" Some of our forwards aren't looking for enough work. Too many times coming out of our own half we have our wingers and centres taking it in whilst half the forwards are walking back with their hands on their hips. We effectively played 6 props yesterday and only Taylor's stats look half decent. Flower wasn't up to his usual standards, Clark rolled over him for his try as though he wasn't there.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"The one player who I think needs a rest or sending out on loan/dual reg at the moment is Dom Crosby. He isn't making the metres necessary to trouble defences and got bullied yesterday.I know he's only young for a prop but I feel he needs to be taken out of the firing line for a while. Just check the stats. at the bottom of the page. www.superleague.co.uk/report/9932 The penalties (10 - 6) and errors (15 - 7) killed us. Give any decent team so much ball and you will suffer. We actually made more metres and more breaks.'" Some of our forwards aren't looking for enough work. Too many times coming out of our own half we have our wingers and centres taking it in whilst half the forwards are walking back with their hands on their hips. We effectively played 6 props yesterday and only Taylor's stats look half decent. Flower wasn't up to his usual standards, Clark rolled over him for his try as though he wasn't there.

I'd personally like to see Faz at 13 to replace Lockers, he had good hands, a strong runner and gets through the hard work in defence.

I do understand thats it's a team performance, and they're all cogs in a team etc but at times I feel we're lacking experience, quality and leadership, this is even more so evident when Lockers is absent.
I feel this was evident when we played the Roosters, we look nervous in the dressing room and then on the pitch, lots of young lads and others missing big game experience.

It's always an issue when you look at recent past players and know they'd walk back into our current team.

We'd easily welcome back....

TOMKINS
Charnley Goulding CARMONT RICHARDS
Green Smith
MOSSOP McM Taylor
J TOMKINS HOCK
Lockers
----------------------
TOMMY HANSEN Flower Dudson

I think now you can see who Wane seems in what positions.

FB: Bowen and Hampshire
Wings: Charnley Manfredi Burgess Gelling
Centres: Daz, Sarge, Gelling Thornley
Stand Off: Green, Williams
Scrum Half: Smith, Powell
Props: Taylor, Flower, Dudson, Clubb, Crosby, Burke
Second Row: Faz, Bateman, Hughes, Clubb
Loose: Lockers, Flower.

For me, looking at this the issue is 13. Lockers provides an attacking link up which Flower doesn't.

Ideally you want to try and emulate what we did last year. Strongest team possible for the first three months or so and then once our position in the top four is cemented start rotating.

We had to put up with two months of poor performances/results last season and were written off by pretty much everyone. I thought after the challenge cup our season would pretty much fizzle out but once we hit the play-offs we just stepped up a gear. Wane and the rest of the staff got it spot on.

This season it's not obvious what our best 17 actually is and I'm not sure if Wane does yet either. I've had a thought about it and struggled with a few positions. At the minute I'd go with:

1. Bowen
2. Charnley
3. Goulding
4. Thornley (Sarginson has impressed me so far though and will improve. This is our weakest position)
5. Burgess
6. Green
7. Smith
8. Taylor
9. McIlorum
10. Flower
11. Pettybourne (He was a wide running strike second row in the NRL and we're light here)
12. Farrell
13. O'Loughlin

14. Bateman
15. Crosby
16. Clubb
17. Tomkins

I struggled with left centre, I think Gelling with a run of games at centre would improve massively. In previous seasons our first choice 17 has pretty much picked itself.

Players who you can guarentee will play all the big games (Wire, Saints, Leeds, Hudds, play offs, CC Semi and CC Final) this year unless injured/banned (feel free to bookmark, they'll all be at least in the team if not in the position I've put):

FB
RW 2 Charnley
RC 3 Goulding
LC
LW 32 Burgess
SO 6 Green
SH 7 Smith
P 8 Taylor
H 9 McIlorum
P 10 Flower
SR 25 Bateman
SR 12 Farrell
LF 13 O'Loughlin

S 22 Pettybourne
S
S
S

So 12/17 who pick themselves IMO even if you don't include Bowen. The team does have plenty quality still, we'll pick up by easter time (don't bookmark that bit

)which luckily is plenty under this system.

+1

Agreed, and last season was pretty much the polar opposite of what happened in 2012 and to some extent 2011, where we'd gone hell for leather for the full season then looked knackered and limped to a disappointing play off series.

The current system allows you to do this, Leeds have exploited it perfectly in recent years, hence why they have contested 3 out of the last 4 CCF and 5 out of the last 7 GF but only finished as league leaders once in that time, and we played it perfectly last season allowing us to win both major trophies despite losing 7 out of our last 9 SL fixtures.

In all honesty those figures stink a bit, and I hope the system that starts next year means that more emphasis is placed on consistency rather than being able to peak at the right times.