The only game ive managed to watch is this mornings vs New Zealand.

Sarginson really stood out to me, looks like he has learned to pass to his winger, either that or he has more faith in Hall than he does in Burgess. Looking forward to seeing how he goes next year.

Of course nobody has said that.

My take on the full player roster - England hat firmly off once internationals start and I like to look at the players in the context of their role for England:

1. Sam Tomkins - went some way to alleviating the accusations of a fear of the high ball in the last 2 games. I still don't think he'll ever eradicate it from his game though, for mine I guess it's a symptom of playing all his rl until his 20's in the halves and having to learn probably the most demanding of rl skills in the full glare of top level competition. Linked well and looked for gaps all the time with mixed results, not unlike his NRL season. Tendency to do the odd petulant thing and waste possession such as the rash ptb today. 7/10

2. Hall - he has that fantastic element to him that can't be coached - an ability to step up to meet the quality of the stage he's on. Whilst he wasn't at his best today, he inspires confidence with his carries, line breaks and defence. 8/10

3. Sarginson/Shenton - I was concerned when Shenton was picked early doors and felt much the same as Cudjoe last year, decent players across the park but with a centre not quite upto the standard and his showing v Samoa did nothing to change my opinion. 4/10 That said, I felt exactly the same with Saginson but boy has he surprised me, he reminded me a lot of a young M Gleeson, not the biggest but instead uses footwork off the mark and precision timing of the draw and pass. He must be a pleasure for a winger to play outside. 9/10

4. Watkins - I find myself frustrated with Watkins, he's obviously got talent in spades and looked right on the edge of using it a few times but can't seem to quite slip the leash in attack. 6/10

5. Charnley - I don't know here. 2 years ago there wasn't a winger in SL to get near him for finishing or exploiting breaks. He did some solid stuff in the games but not enough for me to see him as a potent attacking threat at this level. He's one of 3 or 4 I would say at threat of losing his place next time an England starting 13 is named. 6/10

6. Widdop - I like this fella. Very unlucky to clip the post twice today with conversions and looked very reliable with the boot in the other games. He injects himself into the attack well although lack of real pace will stop him being an outstanding 6. 7/10

7. Smith - He looks just like a 7 that is being coached by Deacon - outstanding as an organiser and obviously puts hours and hours of work into his kicking game. The negative is then obviously he doesn't threaten the line and the opposition know what he's almost certain to pass. I'd like him to be more attacking on his kick variety too, he goes for safety more than he should. That said, clearly followed the role he was given to the letter and there is no obvious replacement 7 for England. 7/10

8. G Burgess - This bloke is immense, an absolute wrecking ball of a runner with age on his side. Different in style to their Sam but he has to be in the top 3 props in the world now. Pleasure to watch. 9/10

9. Clarke - well after being sceptical about his MOS award (admittedly due to watching less SL last year than any season I can remember) I ate my words with 3 types of sauce on the last couple of weeks. Superb attacking threat and the performance notably dropped off in the manner of McIlorum/L Tomkins when he was interchanged. Pretty unhappy that Wire have him. 9/10

10. Graham - interesting comment by Robbie Paul (!) on the BBC aftermatch today that English forwards are re-defining the way RL is played in the forwards from being battering rams commanding 3/4 tacklers to an attacking option that may run direct, use footwork or act as provider for a team mate with the pass. He's an exceptional player and his catch and pass off the deck today actually made me laugh out loud. Odd character that he is, we're very lucky he's English. 9/10

11. J Tomkins - felt he was lucky to be in the squad let alone the starting teams, not on ability but I simply don't think he hit his straps enough with Wigan to earn the call up and his performances in the games didn't change my opinion. He looked better today than previous 2 weeks but was put in before he was ready for mine and got caught flat footed in defence for a try last week. 5/10

12. Farrell - What he does better than any of the other 2nds in SL is run lines. Not unlike Sarginson, he doesn't have sheers size but uses footwork to wrongfoot the marker. I'd have liked to seen more of it but accept that space is at a premium at this level. He'll tackle what comes at him. 7/10

13. Westerman/ Lockers - Westerman looked like he was playing an unfamiliar role in the first game and took a bit of unfair flack based on a half-chance offload he probably on balance should have held onto. Not sure he's anything more than an England backup player though 6/10 Lockers - I was actually shaking my head in despair at some of the morons comments on a FB thread when he was named captain. What does this bloke have to do, other than switch to their club to fit within the blinkers, to win the accolades he deserves? His work in attack and cut out balls, offloads, support is staggering when you look at the volume of work he does in defence. Like Hall, he has the knack of being able to up his game to match the opposition. If he ever takes on one of these teams 100% fit I think we'd see a career-defining performance. 9/10

14. T. Burgess/ Hill - Tom isn't George unfortunately. He's a decent enough player in his own right and a unit, always feels like we're in a holding pattern when he's on over his brother though. That said, held his won with any of the opposition forwards. 7/10 Hill - Am a big fan of this bloke too and feel he's very close to Graham in both style of play and ability. His footwork close to the line for a big lad is outstanding and his performances aside from getting done at marker in game 1 must have shone one hell of a spotlight on him for NRL money men. 8/10 (9 without the brainfart v Samoa)

15. Ferres/Whitehead - Ferres didn't look on the form that made him a genuine choice on merit in the RLWC although I felt he picked up today from earlier weeks. He can hold his own at this level but along with the Wigan pair he didn't have the big impact needed on this stage and helped emphasis the big miss of Sam B. Would definitely have him on the fringes of future teams on past performance though. 6/10 Whitehead - too little too late to throw him in today. It was the right call to play him from the start of the tournament as he's a good talent but looked rusty today and gave away a poor penalty with his first involvement. One for the future with more gametime. 5/10

16. Hodgson - did OK game 1 but looked out of his depth last week. Maybe the NRL will get him upto Clarkes level but as Canberra is something of a graveyard I'm not expecting an overnight transformation. Shame he couldn't up his game to match Clarke and hold onto his place this week but still one for the future. 5/10

Look guys, I know that you are all Wigan fans, but the truth is: charnley was the most ineffective winger in the tournament, Joel Tomkins looked the size of a centre with the speed of a second row and underfit so little impact, lockers would be a great player if fit, and Sarginson was the best Wigan player in the England team, although he could be better (positionally) in defence. No problem with his tackling, he just seems to be caught out in his ability to read the attacking play. This was highlighted by Ryan Hall having to fly out of the line to try to stop the opposition. Let's be fair, Charnley and J Tomkins would be no where near an England shirt if they didn't play for Wigan.

Vatuvei didn't exactly light the tournament up. And I won't even mention Nightingale dropping the ball cold over the try line...

Also, neither of the Australian wingers have scored a try yet.



And that's just a ridiculous comment.

Charnley made more metres then Hall in all three games and made two line breaks yesterday, scoring one try.

I'm not for one second putting him in Hall's league but to say he's been the tournaments must ineffective winger is simply not true. Also trying to blame Sarginson for Hall losing the plot and charging in is crazy! Sarginson was covering his opposite number and Hall made an error of judgement.

Even the best in the world (which Hall is) can do that.

Charnley is copping an unfair amount of flack. He's probably been given a decent pass in a position to make good space around 3 times - and one of those Watkins placed a foot into touch.

He's made alot of hard yards - unluckily for him we just didn't seem to work the ball his way to create the opportunities, too often we went that way without straightening the move up to give him space.

You lose all credibility if you place any blame on Sarginson in for what's been as near to two faultless displays as you will see from someone making a debut. Reading the boards a lot though in the last few weeks has clearly shown there's still an enormous anti-wigan feeling about our players that is embarrassing.

Totally agree re Sarginson.
Certainly the find of the series for me and all credit for McNamara for picking him ahead of Shenton.
I also think Charnley is undeservedly copping some flak.
The weakest of all the Wigan players was Joel Tomkins but not sure who else he could have played there.
Watkins when he tried to take a man on did ok apart from a foot in touch.
He seemed to be defending much more that attacking in all three games.
Hall played well and should have scored three against NZ. He did the hard work staying out of touch and should not have dropped that ball.
Going forward I would like to see Hardaker at FB with Tomkins in the halves alongside Widdop.

Charnley - 7 - ok tournament but didn't have much help from an average Watkins. Think his spot could be at risk this time next year from Burgess

Sarginson - 9 - credit to SM for playing him. In the top 5 English players of the tournament.

Smith - 6.5 - decent club player, but England are crying our for a scrum-half in the Andy Greg mould. Someone dynamic who backs themselves to take on and break the line. Question is, who else is there?

Tomkins - 6 - looked off the pace and didn't really offer much going forward.

Farrell - 7 - solid in the tackle, runs some great lines. Always looks like he's going to give away a penalty.

Lockers - 8 - gave 110% and got through a hell of a lot of work. Would be great to have him fully fit for a series

I know he doesn't play for us anymore, but how do people feel Sam played? I'm really starting to think he's being wasted at FB. I thought he was going to be the next Lockyer, but i'm not so sure...

I thought Sam Tomkins was ok in the first game, good in the second and pretty poor in the third. His game has changed, there's no doubt about it. He used to love to take the line on and at times didn't pick the correct pass but he's now a real creative player preferring to use his runners around him then go himself.

He looks more then ready to move to stand off now. His game looks far more suited to that position then at fullback given how he's playing. I thought Smith did pretty well in this tournament but I can't help but feel we'd be a better side with Tomkins and Widdop (who needs to do more) in the halves.

I'm encouraged by the whole 4 nations.

We are still within touching distance of both NZ and Aus, (you could argue the worst Aus team in recent memory though). Some of the senior citizens of the England team have gone (for the better IMO) and I think we'd be in the final had Slammin Sam not gone.

from a Wigan point of view

Sarg's rehabilitation seems to be coming on leaps and bounds, at London, due to lack of quality around him was forced to be greedy, now at the higher level it is more about creating space and choosing when to go yourself and when to give the winder that half yard.

Tomkins looks better each game since his return from yawnion

Dan Sarginson was a revelation. Hand on heart - I was so nervous for him before the Aussie game and he was superb. Then I thought maybe it was a one-off and he'll blow up against NZ, but he was even better.

Now did ANYONE see that coming in the middle of August at Hull KR when he was so poor? He has improved beyond belief since that night.

Credit to Shaun Wane or whoever at Wigan spotted that potential. Also he must be a confident type of lad because many players would have been overawed by a debut against Aussie in Aussie.

Since this time last year he has played in a World Club Challenge, a Grand Final and played for England twice (and lost the lot - though that is certainly not down to him). So there is lots to be enthusiastic about next year and lots for him personally and (the team) collectively to aim for.

Personally I can't wait for next season.

i thought budgie should have played instead of charnley against NZ, the stats may back charnley up but they rarely win you games on their own. looked ineffective, partially down to Watkins, however I thought watkins, in defence in particular, was superb in the first two games so it is unfair to blame charleys "poor" tournament on that.

hill is and continues to be a revelation in the England team. the burgess brothers give us a great platform for years to come. widdop for me was the biggest flop, I'd rather have sinfield in there! a lomax and smith partnership will do nicely for me moving forwards.

hodgson didn't do much for me either, a fit roby or mcilorum would easily take his place in the squad.

all in all we have a lot to be positive about, that squad was very young and certainly has the potential to win tournaments over the next few years if we can keep the starting 13 fit.

I think a lot of people are forgetting about Reed as a centre.

He's certainly the best overall one that we have.

He looked good at Brisbane earlier this year before he got injured. He can play left or right too. But Watkins and Sarg have those places to lose now. They did enough over the tournament to earn another go next year.

Sarginson was excellent and a real surprise for most fans. Watkins showed glimpses of what he can do but he seems to have lapses in concentration. A move to the NRL would be ideal for him. He's classy enough and he'd learn a hell of a lot.

To be honest I think any one of England's starting 17 could get a gig in the NRL and it's been a long time since we could say that about the team.

I think the problem with Charnley is that he appears so laid back at times, I think it annoys people. Overall he was OK throughout the 4Ns, and he was in there on merit. I do think however that if Burgess and Lineham can stay fit and develop as we all hope then he won't be first choice much longer. Another player I really like is Jermaine McGilvery at Hudds. He's a real wrecking ball kick returner, gets a quick PTB and has genuine pace, he is however very error prone

calm down precious, no one has said that

Quote ="suffolk rhinos"calm down precious, no one has said that'" But it was so much better when we had all those super Leeds and Saints players and that brilliant Tony Smith as coach wasn't it? www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/n ... eagueteam1

Quote ="suffolk rhinos"calm down precious, no one has said that'" But it was so much better when we had all those super Leeds and Saints players and that brilliant Tony Smith as coach wasn't it? www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/n ... eagueteam1

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"But it was so much better when we had all those super Leeds and Saints players and that brilliant Tony Smith as coach wasn't it. www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/n ... eagueteam1'" no one said that either, plenty on here slating watkins (with some justification) and sir kev was usually being blamed when england or gb lost, we are all england/GB at the end of the day, sarginson was superb and tompkins should be a half back with zak at fb we were a dodgy video decision from the final with 5 wigan players in the team, the only one i had any doubts about was j tompkins

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"But it was so much better when we had all those super Leeds and Saints players and that brilliant Tony Smith as coach wasn't it. www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/n ... eagueteam1'" no one said that either, plenty on here slating watkins (with some justification) and sir kev was usually being blamed when england or gb lost, we are all england/GB at the end of the day, sarginson was superb and tompkins should be a half back with zak at fb we were a dodgy video decision from the final with 5 wigan players in the team, the only one i had any doubts about was j tompkins

Which i why i used the word... Gist.... Precious..

That's spot on, I like Smith and is the most improved player in SL the past three years, just lacks that flair, moment of magic attribute. It's a shame Brough didn't get picked last year, he and Widdop would be ideal.

Given the season he had I was surprised Kevin Brown didn't make the squad.

Enjoyed reading that, very fair and balanced. Can't be too critical of such a good overall effort that went very close to success.