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| Quote ="Father Ted"Tomkins and Tommy are half backs playing most weeks behind a beaten pack, again too last night.
We need to put Tommy at 9 either starting or off the bench.
All that possession on their line and little to show for it and not for the first time this season.
It doesn't matter to me whether Sam T plays 6 or 7 we need a top quality, playmaker experienced half back to play alongside him.
First and foremost are the signing of two top class props. The pack has to start winning their game before anyone else in the team can step up their performances. We need a prop now and another when Coley goes.
Gleeson is the type of quality we need. Three more signings like him and the Wigan squad will be a whole lot better.'"
I shall second that.
As for the posts at the start of the thread anyone having a dig at Tomkins is crazy, he is alreay a quality player and if a trained eye did not know his age last night they would think he had been playing for quite afew years, he is still young and a great prospect and will get better but also good enough to compete in super league.
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| Quote ="jjb10"Disappointed we played Mcillorum instead of Smith, tonight was made for his cut out passess.'"
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| Quote ="Salty"No'"
Mcilorum offered nothing at all when he came on. Not a fan to be honest, he gives 100% no doubt, but I don't see why people rave about him at all.
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| I'm very impressed with Sam so far.
Our tactics were wrong on the Saints' line. I'd kick every time on 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th tackle. A good kick always works against them because they shoot off the line to close the attack down.
I've just watched the game again and took particular notice of their defence (usually offside). Noble should take note of this for Edinburgh.
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| I'm not sure what people expect to be honest. Sam has looked a lot more dangerous with ball in hand and general play in the few games he has played than Tim Smith has ever done for Wigan to be honest. Its a strange thing to say but for a small lad, Sam hardly ever misses a tackle, textbook technique. He got done for holding on last night on 1 occassion which was ridiculous he barely had him down for a few seconds.
He doesnt seem afraid, i think at one point him and Leon Pryce were shoving each other which is good to see. People on here shout from the rafters that we need more wiganers, yet at the first sight of a wiganer we expect them to be the next Lockyer or something. To be fair a lot have defended Sam but Sam is definately as good of a prospect as we have had in the last few years without doubt.
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| Quote ="ChrisA"They operate down either side of the field in the modern game, and rarely do we see them link like you'd see halves do 15 years ago. I've heard and read alot of coaches, inclduing Noble state how they operate 1 half down each side. How you maintain there's a difference is beyond me.'"
Would you like me to explain it to you?
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| Quote ="Father Ted"Tomkins and Tommy are half backs playing most weeks behind a beaten pack, again too last night.
We need to put Tommy at 9 either starting or off the bench.
All that possession on their line and little to show for it and not for the first time this season.
It doesn't matter to me whether Sam T plays 6 or 7 we need a top quality, playmaker experienced half back to play alongside him.
First and foremost are the signing of two top class props. The pack has to start winning their game before anyone else in the team can step up their performances. We need a prop now and another when Coley goes.
Gleeson is the type of quality we need. Three more signings like him and the Wigan squad will be a whole lot better.'"
I agree that normally our biggest problem lies with the pack whoi don't make enough decent field position for the halves. But that didn't happen last night - as you say, we had a lot of possession on their line. I was disappointed in the quality of our attack on their line and I'm not sure a couple of better props would have made a huge difference to the score.
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| I do not like the way our halves play. Tommy down the left and Sam down the right. They are totally isolated from each other.
If we had them playing the traditional 6 and 7 way hooker to scrum half to stand off then it would give Tomkins and even O'Loughlin as 13 more of a chance to stamp their authority on the game when going forward.
O'Loughlin was superb going forward last night but I think he could be even better if our setup was different.
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| I personally see Sam as a scrum half so would make it a priority to sign a quality stand-off for next season. Lockyer even at his age would be the perfect partner for Sam and would be a great influential figure for the club but maybe I'm living in dreamland if I think we're gonna sign him. As someone else mentioned we need two world class props. If we can get those three then and only then do I think we can talk about going to the "next level".
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"Would you like me to explain it to you?'"
Please do... Please explain how it's different in the modern game, don't give me the obvious differences that were evident in games played 15- 20 years ago before the 10 yard rule.
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| Tomkins had a good game last night I thought. The problem lies with Leuluai because while he is a good player, he isn't a halfback IMO.
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| Quote ="ChrisA"Please do... Please explain how it's different in the modern game, don't give me the obvious differences that were evident in games played 15- 20 years ago before the 10 yard rule.'"
The key thing is, while it might be popular to play one down each side of the field, the halfbacks who work are the ones who can actually link up as well.
And i can't see Tomkins and Tommy ever working like that, tbh I can't see Tommy ever working properly with anybody at halfback, the lad is definitely a 9.
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| Quote ="ChrisA"Please do... Please explain how it's different in the modern game, don't give me the obvious differences that were evident in games played 15- 20 years ago before the 10 yard rule.'"
For starters you say the 'modern game' as if every team plays the same, this is simply not true.
Wigan play with a half back split, one player controls and organises one side of the pitch while the other controls the other.
Different to this is the likes of Saints and Leeds play with 1st and second receiver often on the same side with the SO running second receiver off the 1st receiver (SH) after receiving the ball off the number 9 from dummy half.
Watch how Pryce and McGuire run off the second receiver from Long/Burrow creating another number to link up with the SR then C then W to create over laps (often using props as dummy runners).
To take it one step further, the 13 (Which can be described as a bigger harder tackling 6-why so many players play both 6 and 13 (Barrett/Lockers/Bird) stands at the other side to the SHf as a loose forward creating more options.
To take it further again, Aus nation team have a deep lying second receiver usually the FB Billy Slater as another option for the SH, the deep lying second reciever usually sands behind, slightly offset to where the SO is.
Systems likes this create more options in attack to trick the defense, but to work such movements you need a true 7 who can run the attack, dictate what play the team is going to run from his first receiver positioning, hence back to the original point why Wigan need a true scrum half cos it is a different position to SO.
With Wigan, you would see a different attack if they didn't play the split an had a true 7.
Occasionally I do see Sam running off Tom creating such movements.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"For starters you say the 'modern game' as if every team plays the same, this is simply not true.
Wigan play with a half back split, one player controls and organises one side of the pitch while the other controls the other.
Different to this is the likes of Saints and Leeds play with 1st and second receiver often on the same side with the SO running second receiver off the 1st receiver (SH) after receiving the ball off the number 9 from dummy half.
Watch how Pryce and McGuire run off the second receiver from Long/Burrow creating another number to link up with the SR then C then W to create over laps (often using props as dummy runners).
To take it one step further, the 13 (Which can be described as a bigger harder tackling 6-why so many players play both 6 and 13 (Barrett/Lockers/Bird) stands at the other side to the SHf as a loose forward creating more options.
To take it further again, Aus nation team have a deep lying second receiver usually the FB Billy Slater as another option for the SH, the deep lying second reciever usually sands behind, slightly offset to where the SO is.
Systems likes this create more options in attack to trick the defense, but to work such movements you need a true 7 who can run the attack, dictate what play the team is going to run from his first receiver positioning, hence back to the original point why Wigan need a true scrum half cos it is a different position to SO.
With Wigan, you would see a different attack if they didn't play the split an had a true 7.
Occasionally I do see Sam running off Tom creating such movements.'"
All valid points I can't argue with, and pretty much what I expected. I'd love if it all teams still played that way. The game as a whole would be less speed orientated, and quick the play the balls and offloads wouldn't be the pinnacle of attacking play.
The skill factor and proper attacking play has diminished every year as teams get fitter, and players get bigger. Individuals are becoming a rarity, we seem to want to churn out robots who all pretty much play the same, and look the same. There's less gaps, and teams concentrate more on territory and possession leading up to a kick, rather than using proper, clever attacking rugby.
I'd love to go back to the days where a scrum half was always first man, and handled the forwards alot more, where the stand off was always stood 1 or 2 men out feeding the backs and back rowers, making breaks. I wish we could have a genuine scrum half like Andy Greg again, the game would be better to watch as a result.
I just feel most teams adopt a far more simple game plan now, where the only variation in the 2 positions is which side of the field they operate, anyone can feed a scrum these days so that doesn't come into it, and the game is becoming boring as a result.
Traditional half backs, and half back play are becoming a thing of the past.
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| Quote ="ChrisA"All valid points I can't argue with, and pretty much what I expected. I'd love if it all teams still played that way. The game as a whole would be less speed orientated, and quick the play the balls and offloads wouldn't be the pinnacle of attacking play.
The skill factor and proper attacking play has diminished every year as teams get fitter, and players get bigger. Individuals are becoming a rarity, we seem to want to churn out robots who all pretty much play the same, and look the same. There's less gaps, and teams concentrate more on territory and possession leading up to a kick, rather than using proper, clever attacking rugby.
I'd love to go back to the days where a scrum half was always first man, and handled the forwards alot more, where the stand off was always stood 1 or 2 men out feeding the backs and back rowers, making breaks. I wish we could have a genuine scrum half like Andy Greg again, the game would be better to watch as a result.
I just feel most teams adopt a far more simple game plan now, where the only variation in the 2 positions is which side of the field they operate, anyone can feed a scrum these days so that doesn't come into it, and the game is becoming boring as a result.
Traditional half backs, and half back play are becoming a thing of the past.'"
I still think during play Saints and Leeds operate in this way, as do many NRL teams.
Scrums in our sport have never been anything more that a way to restart the game, hence why anyone packs down in any order, I think the skill here is how to use the scrum to a teams advantage, ie Saints are using KC in the loose so he can scoot out from the back of the scrum and get the team moving as he does from dummy half.
Likewise teams are playing a SR as first receiver from the scrum feed to take the ball up rather than the SO, simply cos they are bigger and will run at the line.
I'm not a big fan of playing with split halves, but it can spark creative football if you play with a deep lying second receiver acting as the SO to both playmakers. Often for the Aus national team we see Lockyer control one side and JT control the other, with Slater hanging deep for other playmaker. However, they also revert back to the 1st and 2nd receiver positions as well creating a multitude of attacking options.
In attack at Wigan we aren't using the FB as a deep second receiver and often the loose plays more like another SR rather than acting as a another receiver for the scrum half to play to.
Imagine a situation where 9 plays the ball to 7, 7 then has options around him in 6 as a second receiver, 13 as another second receiver to his other side, FB lying deeper as another second receiver. Think of the creative options in attack!
Look at Leeds, how many times does Webb join the line, either as a second centre on the same side between the winger and centre or as a second receiver. Or Sinfield linking up with the halves to create more options.
A loose forward is called a 'loose' for a reason, so in attack, he can float around linking up with the halves for more options.
Lets get a good 7 in the organise the team. I'd like to see Joel at 13.
Lets see how there's more to an FB that kick returns, more to a 13 than tackling and more to a 6 and 7 then working each side of the pitch.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"
Imagine a situation where 9 plays the ball to 7, 7 then has options around him in 6 as a second receiver, 13 as another second receiver to his other side, FB lying deeper as another second receiver. Think of the creative options in attack!
Look at Leeds, how many times does Webb join the line, either as a second centre on the same side between the winger and centre or as a second receiver.
'"
We saw this on thursday for Ainscough's second try, and it's something Phelps offers us at fullback. I dont believe Pat's hands are good enough to throw the cut out ball that Cameron did. Finishing off the move that left Ainscough with the space he had.
However if we put Pat back on the wing who do we drop?! Ainscough? no way! Roberts? Maybe, but I think we have more to see from him yet.
I agree with everyone else that we need an experienced head for Sam to learn from, and I think with Barrett still here we could have won another couple of games this year at least. I'm not really sure wether or not we should play with Tommy at 9, because Mcilorum's distribution is not as good as Piggy's, but I reckon his defense is better and his scooting is more consistant. Riddell might be able to go 40M, but not often, Mcilorum scoots more like Colbon did, put his head through a gap and drive with his legs, making a few metres and taking pressure of our pack.
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| Quote ="Batesy"We saw this on thursday for Ainscough's second try, and it's something Phelps offers us at fullback. I dont believe Pat's hands are good enough to throw the cut out ball that Cameron did. Finishing off the move that left Ainscough with the space he had.
However if we put Pat back on the wing who do we drop?! Ainscough? no way! Roberts? Maybe, but I think we have more to see from him yet.
I agree with everyone else that we need an experienced head for Sam to learn from, and I think with Barrett still here we could have won another couple of games this year at least. I'm not really sure wether or not we should play with Tommy at 9, because Mcilorum's distribution is not as good as Piggy's, but I reckon his defense is better and his scooting is more consistant. Riddell might be able to go 40M, but not often, Mcilorum scoots more like Colbon did, put his head through a gap and drive with his legs, making a few metres and taking pressure of our pack.'"
So what do you suggest?
I agree that Pat isn't a FB, now with my previous explanation I hope I've explained why. We bought him as a winger. I think Wigan didn't count on the success of Ainscough initially planning to have Roberts/Richards on the wings, but now with the poor quality of Mathers and the success of Ainscough we are left with Richards at FB, his goal kicking alone kepts him in the team.
I agree Phelps linking up in the line was great FB play, and maybe something we've never seen Pat do. Now I think we are examining each position in more detail, a FB job is far more than kick return and good field positioning.
I think Richards should be in competition with Roberts for the wing spot with us looking to get a true FB in over time to compliment our team. Ainscough is by far the best winger we have showing Roberts up.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"So what do you suggest?
I agree that Pat isn't a FB, now with my previous explanation I hope I've explained why. We bought him as a winger. I think Wigan didn't count on the success of Ainscough initially planning to have Roberts/Richards on the wings, but now with the poor quality of Mathers and the success of Ainscough we are left with Richards at FB, his goal kicking alone kepts him in the team.
I agree Phelps linking up in the line was great FB play, and maybe something we've never seen Pat do. Now I think we are examining each position in more detail, a FB job is far more than kick return and good field positioning.
I think Richards should be in competition with Roberts for the wing spot with us looking to get a true FB in over time to compliment our team. Ainscough is by far the best winger we have showing Roberts up.'"
Yeah, you have and your right. Hes solid at FB, but to be competing we need every player in their best position, the same could be applied to tommy at 9. One thing about pat on the wing is he can out jump every opposition winger in the comp on his day, and this is something we miss IMO.
Your spot on re roberts, but I don't think we can force Pat and Roberts to compete, I think Pat's goal kicking alone will mean we might as well get shot of Roberts now. Its a real tough one, and you asked for what I think we should do. Well, I'm gona say I'm not Brian Noble, and I don't wish to be, so I'm gona leave it up to him hahaha
Nah Seriously, It has to be Pat at fullback. I can't justify dropping Roberts or Ainscough, and Phelps made that very very basic mistake, so I think I would use that as my excuse to not play him. However I'm not really sure I like that, because I like Phelps he's got a pair, and he runs hard and will always step up. We will also miss his hands as earlier stated.
Oh, and can I point out, how good does it feel to have this selection headache!!!! Rather than just say "well, we've got to play him becaue hes all we've got" we actually have the option of dropping players! wow! This is one headache I've missed
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| Quote ="Batesy"Yeah, you have and your right. Hes solid at FB, but to be competing we need every player in their best position, the same could be applied to tommy at 9. One thing about pat on the wing is he can out jump every opposition winger in the comp on his day, and this is something we miss IMO.
Your spot on re roberts, but I don't think we can force Pat and Roberts to compete, I think Pat's goal kicking alone will mean we might as well get shot of Roberts now. Its a real tough one, and you asked for what I think we should do. Well, I'm gona say I'm not Brian Noble, and I don't wish to be, so I'm gona leave it up to him hahaha
Nah Seriously, It has to be Pat at fullback. I can't justify dropping Roberts or Ainscough, and Phelps made that very very basic mistake, so I think I would use that as my excuse to not play him. However I'm not really sure I like that, because I like Phelps he's got a pair, and he runs hard and will always step up. We will also miss his hands as earlier stated.
Oh, and can I point out, how good does it feel to have this selection headache!!!! Rather than just say "well, we've got to play him becaue hes all we've got" we actually have the option of dropping players! wow! This is one headache I've missed
'"
Your headache is slightly different to mine. I have the same concerns about selection but I feel differently.
Let me explain.
For me, (as explained) the FB position is a key position, and Pat isn't playing it well in attack. But I like Pat as a winger, but I also like Roberts (well think he has potential) and I think Ainscough is the best winger we have) So I've left in the situation where, for the good of the team, I want a true FB and either Richards/Roberts on one wing with Ainscough on the other. Playing Richards at FB till the option for a true FB becomes available.
Think..
Briscoe (for example)
Richards Gleeson Carmont Ainscough
Tomkins Orford/Dobson
Fielden Tommy Ross (for example)
Hock Lockers
Tomkins
------------------
Feka Prescott Riddell Roberts/Hansen
Wigan to play with (for example)
1st receiver Orford, with Joel to his left as loose, Sam to his right as the 2nd receiver, Briscoe deep lying 2nd receiver behind Sam.
Hock off Joel, with Carmont then Ainscough. Lockers next to Sam with Gleeson then Richards on the wing.
Fielden and Ross running tight dummy runner angles.
Tommy as 9 has the ball at dummy half, look at his options.
-Dummy run
-Feed directly to Joel as loose play down one side of the field.
-Play to Orford.
Orford options are:
Flat pass to one the props making it look like he's passing to Sam
-pass to sam
-pass behind sam to Briscoe
-Dummy and go.
-pass in the other direction to Joel.
-Kick for Pat
Each one of the options starts a fast motion attack.
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| Quote ="Saint #1"Tomkins had a good game last night I thought. The problem lies with Leuluai because while he is a good player, he isn't a halfback IMO.'"
10,000 wiganers can see this, why cant the coach?
Tommy is a 9,
Phelps showed with his kicking game and cut out pass for Ainscoughs try that he is suited to 6. I would try sam and phelps at halves even before pat returns from injury.
Back line up of:
Amos
Pryce
Gleeson
George
Ainscough
Phelps
Sam
Once richards returns:
Richards
Amos
Gleeson
George
Ainscough
Phelps
Sam
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| Quote ="Tricky Dicky"10,000 wiganers can see this, why cant the coach?
Tommy is a 9,
Phelps showed with his kicking game and cut out pass for Ainscoughs try that he is suited to 6. I would try sam and phelps at halves even before pat returns from injury.
Back line up of:
Amos
Pryce
Gleeson
George
Ainscough
Phelps
Sam
Once richards returns:
Richards
Amos
Gleeson
George
Ainscough
Phelps
Sam'"
I think Phelps deserves a place in the team at FB then Pryce, so far Pryce's attitude is worryingly poor, this is visible during the game.
Both Phelps and Pryce don't look up to the standard I wanna see at Wigan.
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| Yeah I agree LSoW, Phelps is a better choice on the wing than Pryce.
I've gota admit, I like phelps, I think he will come good for us as a squad player, however I can't see him being more than that. As for using him at 6, your kdding right? We are already struggling because we have changed 6 once this season, I really don't want us to do that agian unforced, if sam or tommy gets injured then fine, but otherwiser I want to see some consistancy in key positions, including Fullback
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Club Coach | 6308 | No Team Selected |
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Nov 2004 | 20 years | |
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Jan 2025 | Aug 2024 | LINK |
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| Quote ="Batesy"Yeah I agree LSoW, Phelps is a better choice on the wing than Pryce.
I've gota admit, I like phelps, I think he will come good for us as a squad player, however I can't see him being more than that. As for using him at 6, your kdding right? We are already struggling because we have changed 6 once this season, I really don't want us to do that agian unforced, if sam or tommy gets injured then fine, but otherwiser I want to see some consistancy in key positions, including Fullback'"
But tommy is a 9.
He simply isnt a creative scrum half, hence why wigan cannot kill teams off.
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Player Coach | 1034 | No Team Selected |
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May 2007 | 18 years | |
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Jan 2012 | Dec 2011 | LINK |
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| I think tommy will do fine at 7 if Sam takes some more responsibilty. For me I'd like to see him telling the likes of fielden, and feka exactly where he wants them to run, how hard, how fast and when. Its what I want my 6 to do when I play.
If sam can do that, then I've every confidence that Tommy can do a fine job at 7
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Player Coach | 4784 | No Team Selected |
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Dec 2008 | 16 years | |
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Mar 2020 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
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| Quote ="Batesy"I think tommy will do fine at 7 if Sam takes some more responsibilty. For me I'd like to see him telling the likes of fielden, and feka exactly where he wants them to run, how hard, how fast and when. Its what I want my 6 to do when I play.
If sam can do that, then I've every confidence that Tommy can do a fine job at 7'"
Tommy has had enough time to flourish as a 7 and hasn't. Barrett carried the creative go forward in our team which protected Tommy.
Now, more that ever, considering the win to loss ratio it is clear we need a new 7.
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