The common theme is that every single professional referee who looked at the so-called knock on agreed that a try should be given.

I'd agree they're almost always given by on-field refs who, rightly or wrongly, tend to give the benefit of any doubt to the defending side. However, I'm less sure the VRs do, given as they are several replays upon which to base their decisions.

I dislike the whole VR thing full stop. But if we must have it, then there are real weaknesses surrounding the on-field decisions of try/no try. I suspect Thaler went to the VR for McGuire's try under the illusion that TV evidence would confirm or refute his on-field decision. The fact that it did neither meant that his decision stood. There's a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that Thaler had no clear idea whatsoever as to whether a knock-on had actually taken place.

It would be interesting too know how the video refs saw it. Was is 2 yes's or 1 yes and 1 no? Why wasn't Ganson video ref when we needed him


In the end the try stood, but after having conversations with some Saints and Wire fans all said no try. I believe a former Leeds player was watching the game in a bar in Billinge and he thought it was no try.

It was clearly no try and never has been a try until they changed the way decisions are sent upstairs.

That would have been turned down in any of the other 17 grand finals without any shadow of a doubt.

Wouldn't have been surprised to have seen it chalked off. I'm not even sure of the rules though. If losing the ball forward without it hitting the ground is a knock-on regardless of what happens next, then it was. Or is losing it momentarily forwards viewed as the same as a fumble, i.e. ok so long as you either regain the ball or the propel it backwards or sideways? If the latter, then it wasn't and the VR decision stacks up.

I'm like yourself in that I am no longer sure of the rules. I thought that loosing control of the ball whilst facing your oppositional is a clear knock on all day long irrespective if eventually propel it backwards or sideways.

So many of us can't help thinking the try would have been disallowed if a Wigan player had done exactly the same as McGuire did....! That is the crux of the whole matter.
I find it amazing that apparently the RFL apologised to Wigan and SW after the Headingley game when despite 2 knock-ons by Sinfield both tries were awarded by the VR, Bentham. That there was a case of déjà vu just over a month later with an even more blatant knock-on really sticks in the craw.
Claims that 3 professional referees deemed it not to have been a knock-on and awarded the try do not alter the fact (as already stated) that the vast majority of people with a knowledge of rugby (not just Wigan fans) would have disallowed the try for a blatant knock-on!

They may know rugby but do they know the rules? If, for example, McGuire had fumbled the ball then palmed it backwards/sideways without it having hit the ground or an opponent then I doubt many would call it as a knock-on (unless in their view it had gone forward and not sideways). Is it different if it hits his leg? I'm not claiming to know the answer although there must be one.

If he palmed the ball backwards before it hit the ground it would be ok. In this case, though, the ball came forwards out of McGuires's hands and then involuntarily hit his thigh. From what I understood Cummins to be saying, this "involuntary" action was the crucial fact. If he had deliberately kicked the ball, it would have been ok but he didn't. Definite knock-on! As the vast majority agree.
I still don't know how 2 professional referees could come to this decision. I have my theories, but....

From the rules:

"Accidental 2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed.
Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball"

Their definition of a kick is to impart movement with any part of the leg from knee to toe but excluding the heel.

Looks like you're right unless they deemed the ball to have hit the knee.

All the professional referees agree it was a try.

Makes up for the seemingley endless 50/50 video ref decisions that have denied leeds against wigan in recent years. Mcguire ''drop kick'' try 2011, mcguire obstruction try MM 2013, Joel Moon phantom knock on MM 2014, Mcguire obstruction try 2015 (which was confirmed should have stood after by the ref's).

Basically anytime in the last 5 years there's been a 50/50 video ref call in a game against wigan, it's gone wigan's way. In all those games less than 6 points winning margin.

Poor old downtrodden hard done by wigan.

Where have you been me owd stocking top?
No soccer on toneet in Merseyside?

He's a Leeds fan, with an infatuation with the 'S'

Well his input is as useful as a tackle in soccer. Non existent.

I think this is actually the reason the ref making a decision needs to stay - as we don't have the video ref at every game, what would have happened if this incident happened in a non-televised game? The ref still wouldn't have had a clear idea, but would have been forced to make a decision in conjunction with his touch judges etc, so the outcome would have been the same - try.

By making the ref make a call - where it's a 50/50, it means the VR or lack of a VR doesn't alter the decision, the on field ref needs to make a call on the evidence he has to hand, and only if that can be proven to be wrong should it be over turned. Those who say a ref shouldn't have to 'guess' when he doesn't know for sure - what would he do in a non-televised game?

Also, by making the refs give a decision, tangible MI can be produced to see which refs get the most calls wrong, and the RFL can then work with each individual ref to find out why they got it wrong and learn from it (it could be bad positioning etc). What would be good to know is the numbers on this for the season - which ref sent the most decisions up to the VR, which ref was overturned the most/least - is there any variances based on potential team bias etc.... Using this system, there's lots of data that could be analysed - I doubt this data will be made available to the fans though.

Bottom line is we'd recovered from the "knock on". We had all the momentum and then chucked it away when we took the two points.
No-one to blame except us.

It's not often anyone says this,, but FlexWheeler's right...

It's alright seeing it from your own teams POV. Remember that Lee Smith offside try in the GF against Saints?

Again, only an error to people who didn't understand the rules. Lee Smith's standing foot was clearly behind the ball. His body, running forward as he was, was level or ahead of the ball. It's the former which matters.

I've only just seen it this afternoon after being out of the country, it's a 50/50 IMO, but Hardaker should've never been able to pass the ball to Moon had Bungalow Clubb played to the whistle.

I think you are classing it as 50/50 because you are a Leeds supporter! I would class it as a 90/10 ( but I am a Wigan supporter!). If it had been a Wigan player losing control of the ball in a similar manner, you would have been very angry if it had resulted in a try.
In all seriousness, do you Leeds fans not accept that you got the benefit of the doubt from the VR every time in the Super 8s and Play Offs/Grand Final? You certainly did at Headingley and in the Grand Final. Hall's winning try against Saints too? Were there any controversial anti-Leeds VR decisions in the games you lost after the Challenge Cup Final?
Please do not quote back what happened at the DW in July - you were harshly treated by the VR then, but that wasn't Super 8s/Grand Final and thus not as important a game!

In the first few minutes of the grand final burrow did a little grubber which bowen knocked on and then a wigan players stood in front picked up, and it was play on! Wigan scored the first try from that set of posession.

Just because hall didn't slam the ball down against saints with the fury of a thousands gods, and the ball didn't go back 40 metres from mcguire's leg doesn't mean the decisions weren't correct.

Hall's has been given as a try all season long. Just because leeds scraped it by the skin of the teeth doesn't mean the decisions were wrong.

It was proven onside. Stupid people were fooled because smith was leaning far forward and mcguire (who did the kick) was leaning back with his leg outstretched infront. But as per the rules, if you compared where smith's feet were planted (not his upper body), to where mcguire's foot made contact with the ball he was onside. It just looked offside from first viewing, because as I say, stupid people were fooled by the upper body and not where the feet were.

I agree that Thaler made a mistake by not spotting Bowen's knock-on - on field refs do make mistakes and don't spot all forward passes, knock-ons etc.
The crux of my argument though is the VR decisions in the Super 8s and Play Offs/Grand Final, where the vast majority of fans (not just Wigan fans) have been baffled on occasions as to how the decision was reached.
I would also be grateful if you could answer the question I asked in the previous post.

Nah, I remember posting a screenshot on here and at least one foot was infront of the ball. It was just the camera angle that made it unproven. Don't get me wrong I loved seeing Saints lose 3 GFs in a row

just hope we don't repeat the honour.