I see your point there, but using football as an example Liverpool are still regarded as one of the biggest clubs and their recent success has faltered and their finances and youth development are poor. I think it takes years to get that title and a big drop to lose it. Thats why I mention Widnes (half heartedly) because of that period in the 80's which includes becoming world club champions,Wire have never had that.

Its a difficult question thats for sure, once we start adding in historical success Wigan can be regarded as the biggest club

Maybe the best way is to ask people who know little about RL who is the biggest club?

Liverpool are still seen as a big club in football as they are, and they have the history to back that up. Players like Torres and Grerrard are world class and wouldnt ever go to a club like Spurs IMO even though they finished above Liverpool last year.

Clubs (not teams) have to earn the status of being a big club and 1 trophy win in 93 thousand years will not make Wire a big club, a bigger club than Leeds (3 in a row) , Saints (may well be the most succesful side in SL era?) or Wigan. Some may even argue the Bulls are a bigger club still.

I reckon it's the same fella who's been winding up the Wolfs with the 'Wiggin Uber Alles' username, probably a Saints fan. My guess would be Saddo

Just to look at Wire top mans suggestion of Wire being a big team, I decided to look at just the Superleague era.

In the seasons from 1996 the highest Warrington have ever finished was fourth (once)
Since it became a play off system in 1998 (twelve years of play offs) they have managed to qualify only four times, getting a home play off only once (then they got battered 6 - 40 by Hull)

I don't think that there is much more to say.

I'm sure we'll think of something. Would be a shame to let the topic drop...

Ive always rated Widnes as a bigger club than Warrington. They'v a better history for starters.

=#0040FFespecially one thats been nominated in the final 3 for Man of Steel for the second year in succesion




=#0040FFthanks for putting them "rules" up we have a bigger turnover than Wigan(infact more than all those clubs bar leeds) have won more recent trophies than wigan (well all the clubs in that list have won more recent trophies than Wigan, We have arguably as good if not better facilities than all those clubs bar Hull, and have our under 20's topping the table



=#0040FFyes we 'tatered Leeds at Wembley its great ..shame you haven't been for 15 years though its changed a bit now....



=#0040FFwell they have if you count the world club championship which lets face it isnt part of History is it its only been a regular match since 2000 other than that we have more trophies than the cup kings with the exception of the premiership ...

but we do have:
the same number of titles
the same number of challenge cups (and one being the iconic 102,000 attendance at odsal)
7 more lancashire leagues
2 more Lancashire cups
1 more Regal trophy

but I can see why you can be so wrong when you think History is from 1987 to1996




=#FF0040anyway back on Topic Alibert's 100% win ratio I assume he is now no longer a great ref?

You've really been writing that for a month

If you'd like, we can exclude those 9 years and list our respective honours 1 at a time?

I think I know who'll be stopping first

How many World Club Challenges was it?

Facts rather than opinion, the wire fans will not like this.

They have now had one poor year with a great end and a really good year with a possible great end and they are now the biggest club in the world.

Back on the topic I started in July(!), Bentham's statistics are now even more frightening:
Wigan have won only 7 out of the 22 games that Bentham has reffed - approx 30%.

With all the other SL refs Wigan have won at least 60% of the games each has reffed - with some it's around 80%. What one would expect given Wigan's relative consistency ( apart from 2005/06) in the past 10 years. Let's not forget that Wigan still have as good a win/loss record against Saints, Leeds and Bradford in the past 14 years of SL despite not winning much silverware.

Some have already said in recent weeks Cummings is saving Bentham for the Play Off semi final or even final - should this massive and startling discrepancy be highlighted/reported to the RFL for comment if this were to happen?

You will, I’m not disputing Wigan’s success the reply was for the Wigan fan who stated Widnes Have a better History than Warrington. Can you have such a thing a better history ?? You can have more success but I’m not so bold to say any club has a better history than another. Widnes for example only won there very first championship in the 70’s Swinton had filled their boots years before that how do you work out better History there…?

Wire Had Bevan playing for them people say he was the greatest ever, in your successful period you had Mark Preston which Speccies got the better deal…

Talk about Success all you like (and you do) but don’t rubbish other clubs History they’ve all been around for a hundred or so years a ten year spell isn’t all that is it.

I have yet to see a wire fan state we are the most successful club ever we are not… but we have a great History …..oh yeah all in the top flight too…..

World Club challenges...they're just a pre season freindly for the Aussie Clubs


come back when Youve beaten the Aussie National side like we did...

1bit·ter adj \ˈbi-tər\
Definition of BITTER

hard to bear; grievous; distressful: a bitter sorrow.

causing pain; piercing; stinging: a bitter chill.

characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.

hard to admit or accept: a bitter lesson.

resentful or cynical: bitter words.

Bent ham easy

I posted this topic 5 years ago - interesting reading in 2015 in view of some of the most baffling VR decisions against Wigan in the Leeds match at Headingley and again in the Grand Final.
Out of interest, it showed the knock on in " Superzoom" in the highlights on Wigan TV ( the Club End of Season Awards Night Part 2).
It was even more clear than ever that the ball travelled forward from McGuire's hand before inadvertently hitting his thigh. Cummins commented on the night that unless he deliberately kicked the ball, it had to be a knock on. Why did Bentham and Silverwood allow the try to stand? I honestly believe 99% of impartial spectators would judge this to have been a blatant knock on.
It might also be interesting if Bilko could provide some updated statistics - see page 1.
It also begs the question why did they not use the Superzoom facility on the night?

What Cummins said was that if it went forward off his leg then it's a knock on. You said that it travelled forward until it hit his thigh, but a player can't knock on onto himself, so it's ultimately where the ball lands off him. For me, that was backwards.

99% of times when a player fumbles the ball like that, a knock on is given, even though the ball eventually lands behind the player. There are sometimes instances where the ball may even land a foot or two behind the player but a knock on is given - Stevo would probably say it was the player's "momentum" that then took him in front of the ball!
Some knock ons may thus judged to be rather harsh but they do tend to be given - just not in Wigan's favour ( or against Leeds) in crucial games where there is a certain VR on duty.

Cummings's final view was that the try should be given - which tallied with the opinions of James Child, Ben Thaler, Richard Silverwood and, yes, Phil Bentham.

Perhaps someone might like to comment on this thread about Bentham's refereeing in the 2011 Challenge Cup Final, by far the most controversial cup final performance in recent years?

You forgot to mention the baffling decisions in the Leeds game at the DW. The Matty Smith knock on that was missed and the try of the season disallowed because Joel Tomkins made a defensive misread and threw his hands up in the air to claim a penalty.

In that match at the DW, Leeds had forward passes leading up to two of their tries and the no try of the season had a forward pass prior to the touch down too.

Bentham showed his incompetance/bias twice in the 2014 season.
First in the Pettybourne/Wood incident where the Wire man hit Eddy four times whilst the Wigan man was just flailing to stop the punches landing whilst never throwing one himself. Bentham should have sent off Wood and not taken action against Pettybourne. The binning of both was either complete ineptitude or bias.

Second was his decision or lack of it in the Hohaia/Flower event. Both men should have been sent off. Hohaia for racing 25 mtrs to smash his elbow/forearm into Flower's face and Ben for his couple of punches in retaliation. Just to send off one of them was, again, either total incompetance or bias.

The RFL owed the Wigan club and their supporters an explanation as to why their players were subjected to that kind of violence and little or no action was taken against the perpetrators.
Bentham proved in both instances that he is unfit to referee due to his inabilty to manage stress situations.

I don't blame the ref/touch judge/video ref for what was an embarrassing moment for the game in that Moon try being allowed. I blame the ridiculous rule that the ref on the field has to send it up as a try/no try which basically meant the video ref couldn't rule out what was clearly, and always has been a knock on! It was a call that would go out way 99 times out of a 100 in the past but with this new system they feel compelled to back the field ref.

It needs binning for the start of next year.