It was obvious to me what the last two performances have lacked. I said it often enough last season and I'm saying it again. Wigan fans have consistently underrated Matty Smith.

Tommy may tackle well (although not on Friday) and his passing is passable

Now I like Tommy, always have, but we miss Matty terribly. We would have won both those games with him in the team. Matty gave the team the organisation that was missing on Friday.

Tommy doesn't organise. He isn't vocal, and what is just as bad, his kicking is woeful. We looked good when we had a full team out but when we needed our big players to stand up, it didn't happen. The best performances on Friday were from the fringe players; Davies, Escare, Gregson. The props (especially Clubb, Flower and FPN) stunk the place out and that never helps a half back but I'm afraid I'm expecting more from Tommy. When McIlorum (if he ever does) gets back I might be tempted to try Powell at Half Back, and put Tommy on the bench as back up hooker.

Thoughts?

You are Matty Smith's dad and I claim my £5

Sorry mate, but I suspect that the thing(s) we have been missing for the past couple of matches are:
First choice wingers
First choice centres
First choice hooker
First choice Loose Forward
Sam Tomkins (wherever he may play)

Tommy had his first bad game of 2017 last weekend, but that was playing behind a pack who were soundly bullied for 20 vital minutes, and with a halfback partner who sometimes (regularly, last Friday) goes disastrously off-script. Plus, as others have said, we have lots of firepower missing.

I quite liked Matty, but he's gone. I don't think Tommy is a bad replacement.

Yes, you are right. But that isn't the point I am making.

We would have won both of those games last year with Matty in the team. Tommy's poor kicking and lack of organisation will cost us in close games.

Agreed, he isn't a bad replacement, but as I've said above, we won those tight games last year. This year we have drawn one and lost one. I'm not blaming Tommy as you have rightly pointed out the pack was poor. But the point is - this happened loads last year, but we managed to win games just like the Hull game and the Huddersfield one too.

Tommy was supposed to be so good that we wouldn't miss Matty's kicking, but that hasn't been the case. Tommy has assisted in just one try all season, despite playing every minute. And while we are at it Morgan is currently kicking at 60%, some way below Matty's rate. Though he wasn't a reliable kicker either, being average was good enough. People were happy to welcome Tommy back because he was seen as a superior half back to Matty. But in terms of results on the pitch - it isn't happening.

Happy to be proved wrong by the way.

You do realise we lost games with Smith in the team as well last year? May just be me but I think I've seen more entertainment in general play these last half dozen games than we did for the majority of last season. You mention poor kicking but his place kicking was mostly abysmal last year (how many times did we groan at when the kicks went straight down the throat of the opposition full back)? His conversions are no better than Escare's, however he can knock over a decent drop goal.

I don't just want one point wins, with some more players back lets get back to playing good attacking rugby with options all over the field (moving away from the five years old planned move).

I'd agree that we are looking better. I put that down to Williams, Farrell, Gildart and Burgess on the left edge. We look no different on the right edge.

Every kicker in the league hoofs it straight to the full back when they are kicking from 20 or 30 yards out. Matty is no different in that respect, but he is better when we are going forward, much better than Tommy.

I've been delighted by Escare, But his goal kicks are not as accurate. He has missed 12 out of 30 that's 60% success. Quite comfortably worse that Smith last season, who kicked 83 out of 110 that's 75%. Sometimes the figures (reality) tell a different story from what you've 'seen'.

Just out of interest I looked up Pat Richards' rate in 2013 - any guesses? (Yes 75%!!!)

We could and maybe should have won both games. If we had, then would you still think the same? We have played more attacking rugby this season than we did in the whole of last season. Smith did play well on Friday but he wont have it all his own way against teams playing with a lot more confidence than Warrington. Will see how he does on Thursday against Salford.

Yes I would think the same. I posted something similar earlier on in the season, after the Widnes game I think, when our kicking was poor. However, it is becoming apparent to me that this is now a problem. I hope it doesn't cost us in the bigger games.

Bigger Games.......? World Club Challenge not big enough for you

No elephant in the room at all. With so many first teamers missing there's as big a chance Smith would have gone missing also. How can anyone state with certainty that we would have won both games? I don't want to denigrate Smith because he is a model pro but the one thing I am certain of is that Tommy is a superior player. I believe Saints also hold the same opinion given how hard they tried to sign him.

Leuluai and Smith have totally different strengths. There are some things Tommy is doing to a far higher level then Smith could manage but by the same token I think Smith was better in some other areas (clearly kicking out of hand being one and we do miss that from deep).

The time was right for Smith to move on IMO and nothing has changed my mind so far. His confidence was shot at points last year and he never really recovered. His form for us hadn't been great for 3 seasons and it just felt right for both parties.

Wow I can't believe this thread exists.

Is it April 1st?
Last season and to a lesser degree the season before we were truely atrocious to watch and Smith was a major player in our "style".
I'm still unsure what we played but it wasn't rugby league.
We got more entertainment in the second half against Hull than we did for the whole of last season at home.
Where I would agree is that TL kicking out of hand isn't great and personally I would have kicking for position on the majority of occasions.
He may well come back to harm us on GF but TL for Smith was an absolute no brainer for me.

Unbelievable! Matty Smith lacks skill. He never takes the line on, his passing accuracy is awful, he's slower than my Mum, Williams had to do far too much because of Smiths ineffective play.
This season we have been far more fluent in attack because of Tommy. He is dictating all that we do, freeing Williams up to wreak havoc.
Tommy wasn't great on Friday but it was the defence down Gelling's flank that got ripped apart. Not because of Tommy who missed a tackle but regardless is far better than Smith ever was or ever will be!

I agree with this. For me Matty Smith was a 'crap weather' performer, even then I have only seen him put in two superb performances ever! One for Wigan (Hull FC Wembley Final) and England's Test Match vs New Zealand at the DW a couple of years back. Both of these games were played during downpours and the pitches were heavy.

I never saw him break a defensive line, a show & go and hit the gap. Never.

Nevertheless he comes across as a really decent guy, was impressed at the time he spent consoling Wire players at the end of last years Grand Final.

On Friday we played like we did for most of last season. What's the commonality between the two? Missing our best second rowers and most of our 3/4's. We'll be reet soon enough.

Fair enough. I was meaning the Business end, as I think you know.

Was attempting to start a discussion about whether people are happy with TL. For me, regardless of what Smith did or didn't do, TL needs to improve his kicking (which at his age isn't going to happen). And just one try assist from six games isn't too hot either.

If you'd prefer not to bother - then don't.

They are different players.
Tommy has already made 12 tackle busts this season, Smith only made 13 in a full season.
Smith made 2 errors in his one game for Saints Tommy has made 3 so far.
Tommy has already made 98 tackles and missed 7, Smith last season made 470 but missed 60. In sinple terms Smith misses almost twice as many tackles as Tommy.
Smith managed to run for 4 metres for Saints on Friday!!

The point I am making is that they are totally different players, and I think it's no coincidence that Wigans attack and defence has looked better since Tommy came back. I do share your concerns about the kicking game though.

Maybe but business end of the season is bigger games which Cronulla in WCC was.

As you probably read there isnt much backing for Smith or regret that he has been moved on.

TL as never had a good kicking game and doubt he was brought in just for that.....so I would look at Wane and recruitment if this does end up costing us.

Assists for a scrum half are not everything if we was scoring the majority of our tries around the width of the posts I would expect his assists to be a lot higher. However if you look at our tries this year they have been in corners or down the flanks so the assist will be by the centre / second row or Williams. This is also the reason why Escare successful kicking % this year as been around 60

The assist is an unfair stat IMO. Just because the centre makes the last pass they get the credit but the real damage may have been done by another player in the middle of the field.

Our attack this season has been far more slick than in previous years but we have consistently (for years) scored more tries out wide due to our attacking structure.

Indeed. Recruitment seems to be a committee affair between Wane, Radlinski and Lenegan.

We have always scored a lot out wide so the kicking stats are comparable. Smith was 75% last year (Richards was 75% in 2013), Escare is 60% this year so far.

George plays on the left, Tommy on the right. George has eight assists, Tommy one.