This is a Rugby League forum, not a travel expo.....you are Judith Chalmers and I claim my £5!

Toronto were hailed as the saviour of the sport who would open up opportunities to generate more revenue......the only opportunity to generate new revenue so far has been to employ a few Leigh rejects and some pretty average ANZACS.

They will take their place in SL next year and as a result (unless they replace Catalans), the average crowds will be down in 2019, the TV figures will be down with one less game shown (if they replace Catalans) and Betfred will be scratching their heads as to why they are paying to sponsor a 12 team league with 2 clubs of no interest to them (if they don't replace Catalans).......meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend...
...3k there apparently.......

...did they bring the hot-dog canon?

......but I have noticed that their press releases are getting more "us and them" in their stance, claiming that the team have been away from home for 4 long months, when in reality, most have been at home with their mums



Next year in SL, Toronto will need to average 10,000 fans paying £20 sterling as the average price to break even. £4,000,000 is the figure needed to sustain a SL club and that's a bottom 4 SL club at that.....if Argyle wants to challenge for honours, then he'll need deep pockets and be prepared to throw another £4,000,000 at them to compete with the big 3 or 4 in SL.....and he's still got to stick to the cap. Given London couldn't get star players to travel 200 miles, his ability to get Sam Burgess to move to Toronto for less money will be key.......and that ain't happening.

To clarify, the average price of a ticket to Toronto's next home game is CA$25...OR £14.......Nobody here has denied that their claimed attendances last year included every Free ticket they had given away, so the reality is that Argyle is looking at a similar or worse ticketing income next year to London Broncos in SL but with TWICE the expense......if not more......and there's no sign of the TV deal or any Major Sponsors other than the contra airline deal. Then there's the subject of when they start paying regular season games at Home next year.....whomever is at the wrong end of SL will squeal a lot more about unfair advantages of blocks of games.....after all, relegation is a massive drop in income and no club can truly afford to lose 1 million in revenue......so, do Toronto give up home advantage for maybe their first 2 or 3 games....Mid March sees temps of 7 degrees in Toronto.....About the same as Liverpool in Feb.......and then I'd make them play Home and Away....let's see how many of the imaginary 7,000 will pay ca$37 to sit in an uncovered stand for the visit of Salford.......I can get tickets to the Blue Jays for ca$10........
...the TV deal and Sponsors are nowhere to be seen.......and this sport that is new to the city needs to get 10,000 punters to pay nearly 4 times the cost of a Blue Jays ticket to stand a chance of surviving.

I wish them all the luck in the world, but the reality is that with a level playing field and a level cap, they will struggle to survive as anything other than a rich-mans plaything and a place where pensionable players go to earn a crust.

I think you quoted the wrong post. That has nothing to do with what I have been posting about.

I agree about the difficulty in recruiting players but no P&R system we have used would eradicate that. The same with players gravitating towards the teams that are usually at the top. It's part of the reason those clubs are usually near the top and generally always have been. The tendency since the introduction of the split season has been for clubs facing the qualifiers (from both divisions) to strengthen using short contracts that then either get renewed if a SL place is secured or are not if it isn't. Not an ideal situation but whenever there is risk of the drop then we will get this issue until such time as the sport is cashed up enough for the second tier to be full time too so as to remove the necessity for wages to drop or players to be shed.

Quote ="Call Me God"meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend... ...3k there apparently....... ...did they bring the hot-dog canon? '" https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes ... 4667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425

Quote ="Call Me God"meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend... ...3k there apparently....... ...did they bring the hot-dog canon? '" https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes ... 4667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425

Bless....I like the trees in the stadium (ha ha), what type are they ? Have they been imported from the UK, in a kind of 'role reversal' way. Are they treated as if they are 'special trees' and also we should be grateful for them, and that the TREE organization will do anything to make sure that they 'prosper'. I think I am correct in my assumption....



Rergards

Percy Thrower

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" And? 3K in the one stand looks good, of that there is no doubt, but let's see if the videos are posted after the next few home games and if they pan around the entire stadium.....9,600 capacity Google toronto wolfpack v doncaster 16 SEP 2017.......watch the 18 minutes to 22......Doncaster try. Half full in the stand opposite the cameras......watch the conversion....half empty stand where the camera are......claimed attendance ‎8,546.....that's 1,000 empty seats? Youtube Toronto Wolfpack vs Oxford RLFC in home debut - May06 2017.....6,281.....How big is that BEET TENT There are plenty of other examples of the Wolfpack using smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of their "reach".....They claim one stand holds 6k the other 3k...... those stands look pretty identical to me, so 4,500 in each..........they lie about attendances.....it's a simple but reliable fact.

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" And? 3K in the one stand looks good, of that there is no doubt, but let's see if the videos are posted after the next few home games and if they pan around the entire stadium.....9,600 capacity Google toronto wolfpack v doncaster 16 SEP 2017.......watch the 18 minutes to 22......Doncaster try. Half full in the stand opposite the cameras......watch the conversion....half empty stand where the camera are......claimed attendance ‎8,546.....that's 1,000 empty seats? Youtube Toronto Wolfpack vs Oxford RLFC in home debut - May06 2017.....6,281.....How big is that BEET TENT There are plenty of other examples of the Wolfpack using smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of their "reach".....They claim one stand holds 6k the other 3k...... those stands look pretty identical to me, so 4,500 in each..........they lie about attendances.....it's a simple but reliable fact.

Just providing more footage of the crowd there....or are you the only person allowed to post an image of a Toronto crowd on here?

So did the Wolfpack. That much that they counted them as part of the attendance



Not at all......it's just videos like that were few and far between last year. Instead we relied on TV footage to disprove the lies they spouted.

They're videos just shot by fans in attendances on social media, I'm sure you could've found the exact same IF you wanted to last year. For all your criticism of their attendances last year, the number of just 3k for this game actually looks pretty fair given those clips so you just sound bitter and agenda driven trying to paint it as a lie with a selective single photograph.

It's like he has an agenda or something ?

Yes, he is just a bitter, twisted man. London Broncos/Harlequins fans can testify to this from his previous incarnation as Gutterfax.

He wants all expansion to fail. If he gets his way the game will continue to decline in the northern hemisphere.

I suppose its down to what context the word "expansion' is being used in. As Perez stated in order to get the TV broadcasters/sponsors on board would take 5/6 teams to join the party. There would be no NA league for at least 10 years, all would remain transatlantic as that aspect appeals to TV broadcasters/sponsors.

Most Cities in North America don't have more than one team in the same sport. Placement of those 5/6 clubs is paramount. They can't place 3 clubs in a relative vicinity of each other, for one the game just isn't popular enough,but the main reason being the paying customer is not accustom to that scenario.

So you are basically left with 5/6 transatlantic clubs,and the logistical nightmare that will go with that.

Just my opinion of course,but I really don't see what other options they have short term. Long term 10 + years with investment if they get these clubs going is a possibility. Just not sure the plan is going to form at present.

I typed 4 words and you still twist it.

You really are something else

A couple do. LA has 2 MLB, Football& basketball teams. New York has 2 of every sport. And pretty much every American city has a team in at least 3 of the major sports over there (American football,Baseball,Basketball,Ice Hockey & Soccer). With a number having a team in ALL the sports.
So as you say the placement of any RL team is paramount. Because putting an alien sport in a place where there's already a full market can only lead to one thing long term, failure. Novelty might help at first, but it's not going to sustain a team.

And in my opinion the only way you get American Broadcasters/Media involved big time is if it's an American league (which as you say is along time off). They're are always going to be more interested in Philly v Denver , than Philly v Wigan. That's just the nature of Americans.

And then the issue becomes, if teams are in our league, and an American league takes off. What do they do? And if they leave what becomes of our league?

And to me this was always the big problem (as with a lot of things in RL). We went short term, without looking at the long term. Instead of looking at it, we want to be here in 10 years, so we do this then this then this to get there. We look at it as right if we do this, then that COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN, and oh we've gone wrong and are back on our knee's. So let's change it all again and hope it works better this time.

Exactly the concern I have been voicing. With every respect to our top clubs, I wonder how many American fans have even heard of Wigan, St Helens, Hull, etc?

We could get caught in two ways if we have 4/5 North American teams in 'our' league:-

If that league becomes successful, our lower tiers gradually wither away. (4/5 NA teams each take say 20 of our players)
If the league is unsuccessful, what becomes of the likes of Wigan, Saints etc, when they are not wanted by the NA teams? Would there be anything left for them to come back to?

Nope. I am just a realist who doesn't subscribe to the propaganda that Toronto are the answer to all the games woes.

In year 1, Toronto did everything they said they would. The paid for away travel for visiting sides, put them up etc.....they did the rounds of PR, Social Media, got themselves a local TV deal, didn't take cash from central funding and not surprisingly walked their division with a team that cost more than the other 11 in their division combined. Well done Wolfpack.

Year 2 is where I see the issues creeping to a head. The work on Lamport has been known about for 3 years and was scheduled as early as Feb 2017.......so they knew it was coming. The fact that they didn't find any other ground for games this year until May is suspicious, to say the least. Then there was the triple departure at the start of the season and the disappearance of Perez? Then the fixture v the French, which would have actually cost them money as their sponsor doesn't fly from Toulouse, is mysteriously bunged onto Magic Weekend.......it's almost like they're being given every assistance available......don't get me wrong, Argyle and his cash are welcome, but SL and the SL graveyard are littered with well meaning multi-millionaires who haven't a clue but believe their wealth entitles them to whatever they want.
Those fawning over Toronto need to realise that Argyle will bin the SL as soon as they get their foothold in the USA.....as other have stated the USA is an insular as a country can be, so Wigan v NYC isn't what they'll Watch.....but LA v Boston is...so if the Gym teacher gets NYC into the SL inside 3 years and we have Boston and Jacksonville joining them, whilst these new teams vacuum up our talent, we make room by replacing the Salfords, Widnes's Huddersfield's......only for these new teams to take their ball and leave us high and dry.
RL has a rich history of well meaning folk cutting corners and trying to do the right thing quickly and on the cheap.......and Toronto is yet another example of this.
As for the topic of crowds. Well done them for getting 3k to the playing field at the weekend......great crowd considering they were 25 clicks from home and playing a bottom club.....but when they arrive in SL next year with no TV deal and no new sponsors, but packed with a suspiciously "cap" tastic and EU Passport holding ANZAC squad, I suspect we'll here more SL chairmen requesting Home and Away scheduling for them, whinging about Premier TV cameras showing games.....

As for Chorley Johns comments about me being anti-expansion......nothing could be farther from the truth. It's just I've seen what happens when you build from the top down.......[urlhttp://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/Articles/FulhamvWigan.htm[/url

Quick.....someone call 007.........Chorley John reckons he's found an evil criminal mastermind..

Again it requires what is expected from the word 'expansion'...This transatlantic lark is a completely different scenario which effects all clubs from top to bottom.

Its either discarded now or they go with it.

I am in no way saying discard it, but if there's an appetite for RL in North America, don't drip feed it, because that just simply won't work. Launch 4 more teams in the Championship in 2019 and see what happens.......not one now, NYC in a couple of years......Boston in 5, Jacksonville in 7.......it just won't get any traction that way.

Fulham got 12k for a visit of Leeds back in the 80's....it was exciting and new....London Broncos gt 6k season 1 in SL where the whole comp averaged only 10% more.....getting fans to a game in seasons 1 and 2 and even 3 is easy enough...it's new and exciting......but Warrington, Widnes, Salford, St Helens, Wigan....in fact all 11 English town sides with maybe the exception of Leeds will be no draw card.

I absolutely loved Perez and the bravado of 2017.......but in reality, on their own in SL Toronto will be useless to expand the game. Unless the SL stops relegation, then they run the risk of going down......a very un-american concept, so do we wrap them in bubble wrap?

Too many unanswered questions and it smacks of the game making it up as it goes along.......

No, I dont agree with wrapping them in cotton wool,but they are guests to the sport and should be treated accordingly,but not as a threat to the heritage of the sport.

If they want more than guests, then lets talk coin now. Toronto will be looking at alternatives,what are the RFL looking at present? 12 SL chairman who can't make a decision based on their own clubs, their own investments and losses. Oh they want a piece of the pie,but just realised it will take another 10 years before they get it.

So the question is. Who allowed Toronto in the league in first place? What was the vision the RFL saw by making that decision? The entry of Toronto was based on one mans vision, Perez! wheres he now?

The plan has evidently changed. Time to move on.

What, Rugby League looking for a quick fix, instead of having some short, medium and long term plan, I dont believe it.

Go on then what is it Leeds "maybe" have that the rest don't ?

Big city status maybe ? (Hull fall into the same category though)
Apart from those 2 (and Wakefield), all of the other clubs are towns or pit villages

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" From the angle provided by Reni & the other guy, that stand had some large gaps as evidenced in the video clip of Bussey's coward punch !

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" From the angle provided by Reni & the other guy, that stand had some large gaps as evidenced in the video clip of Bussey's coward punch !

Which is similar to our games away attendance. Majority of Canadians didn't attend because it was an hours travel out of their way. For some it was closer. The point thats being made here is if they throw another RL club in the same province it would fail, because the sporting nature of these places is only to support 1 team in the same sport as thats all they are use to doing.