It would be interesting to see how team tightened up in terms of expansive play as SL play offs come around. FWIIW, IMO the impact of Rob Burrow at 9 was as equally important as Kevin Sinfields kicking. Maybe more important. Leeds actually become very concervative in the play offs and attempt to purely gain a field position to give a kicker a great opportunity. The Leeds front row was not dominant bar the occasional but increasingly less so Peacock storming run. Burrow bobbing and weaving made Leeds yardage game more effective to then put Kevin Sinfield in kicking range. Without that platform Kevin Sinfield is no better than the majority. The only other get out of jail card was when the opp team try to overplay and make mistakes. You see it in the CC final when Kevin Sinfield looks anything but world class until Wire start getting over confident, you see it v Wigan when Wigan enjoy periods of 'bullying' Leeds around the park. The standard in the play offs is if anything the reason why a LF can be effective at 6 as British teams tighten through pressure.

The bottom line for me though is no British player unless they play in the NRL can be a credble GB winner.

Fylde Warrior, you now seem to be flailing desperately and repeating yourself several times over but not responding to the points I raised or the questions I asked you.
The NRL is certainly a competition with more consistently high standards from team to team. No one would deny that. But to describe Super League as a second-tier competition is silly, as Super League's record in the World Club Challenge demonstrates. I admit that it may prove difficult to keep up that record as the financial disparity grows between the two competitions, but that is in the future, not the past.
And it's a non-sequitur to say that the best individual player, year by year, must always be an NRL player, just as it would be to say that the best soccer player in the world must always come from the highest paid league.
And on the subject of individual players, it's worth noting, for example, that Luke Burgess couldn't break into the Leeds team, but featured consistently in the starting lineup for South Sydney in 2013, helping them to third place in the league. So the disparity in standards doesn't seem as great as you seem to imagine.
Your arguments are all hypothetical, while you seem to think that actual evidence of clubs' and players' attainments doesn't count.

So all those wins were all due to him? he played his part , of course he did. He's a fine player, don't recall anybody disputing that. He was also in a team that could only manage 5th place in the league for the last 2 seasons and lost at wembley for the last 3 seasons but he isn't blamed for the defeats or the poor league seasons. He can't take all the flak and he can't take all the credit.
Yes he had 2 great games at the end of the year, seems the rest of the season (that the dream team is picked from) isn't took into consideration.
He's reliable, dependable an important link in the chain (is gary neville better than messi?) if he was a car he would be a Honda civic, now lets look at a porsche.

I think it is well deserved.
Sinfield makes a lot of things look very easy, and for the last few seasons I think a lot of people discredit how good he is and what the guy has achieved.
I would love to see him in the NRL.
I think its hard to see the true quality in Super league these days because it really isnt as good a competition as it was, and im not sure what the future holds for SL with the NRL salary cap going up.

Its hard to compare sinfield with the likes of Scully, Farrel etc.. but I think he is up there with this calibre of player.
I would happily swap Sinfield for anyone in the saints team apart from Roby.
To ad to it, he is probably the best goal kicker in super league.

I think he will prove a few people wrong in the world cup whether England win it or not.

Sweet Mary Martyn!

I hope you do not seriously believe what you are typing. Firstly and most importantly NOBODY with any sense believes the WCC is truly indicative of the disparity between NRL RL and British RL. However, as seems to be your party piece, random stats (lies, damned lies and stats etc.)

Martyn Sadler comes in front of Joe Public stating the WCC shows that British RL is comparable to NRL RL when in the last 4 WCC matches, British clubs have lost 3 out of the 4 despite the contest being heavily weighted in British Clubs favour (venues, travel and timing) and taken far more seriously by British clubs.
However, if I want to debate this aspect (I presumed you were a journalist which means IMO and many that what you write and put your name to is not always what you really believe) then let us consider the only time we got a possible in depth comparison, the 1997 World Club Championship!



You do realise if we throw in 1997 then the fact so many British RL clubs had the amazing 0 wins 6 defeats. Do you still want to carry on this pointless charade of arguing that the WCC disproves British RL is second rate compared to Australian RL?
Better still I can if you carry this lunacy throw in GB/England v Australia results?

I will keep repeating THE TRUTH and it hurts me as a British man.
British RL is second rate compared to Australian RL.
It has been since 1962!

You read like a mirror image of the great and the good of British RL prior to the 1982 Kangaroo Tour. Far better RL men than you and I, were then proven to be similarly deluded. To see history repeating itself in 2012/13 grates me because RL supporters deserve better from those with the opportunity to prompt and instigate change. I want to earn the right to be as proud of British RL as we are of the 1962 tourists.

You have a fantastic opportunity by your position BUT sorry you simply waste it and in the process ‘hurt’ British RL. You bring up WCC, when were they reintroduced Martyn and by whom? Not you, not LP. Look at the attendances in recent years compared to the energy and effort used by people more capable than all of us here to promote this great game. Virtually, everything good about British RL dates back from 1982 when we saw how bad British RL was and started to try to bridge a huge gap. Alas, such desire has been hijacked by self-interest from member clubs and the likes of LP have stood by whistling Dixie! Open Rugby was beyond anything LP has created. Peter Deakin and so forth showed what could be done in RL. What are we left with, the hideous pretend best player in the world award.

This entire episode / your efforts in this thread reflect so badly that Joe Bloggs British RL fans will be dismayed by the calibre of people who have an important voice and the ability to shape a game.

You can write me off, I am not important. Just an ordinary man BUT ask yourself can these individuals be ignored and dismissed;





Read and digest and to yourself and 99.9% of the British RL media ‘Grow a set and fight to make British RL better the right way’ The GB of 2012 was a pathetic ill-conceived stunt that pleases the odd one eyed Rhino fan but embarrasses the vast majority of British RL devotees.

Just to add Martyn, I am a nobody with a passion for RL. I answered what questions you asked. There were so few. You never answered mine but hey your last reply was incredibly lame.

Regardless of whatever excuse you need to come up with to justify your standpoint to yourself. Even if we accept your nonsense, it is an indication of the disparity between SL and the NRL. In 2011 there were 3 changes in the Manly side from that with which they won the NRL. 3. Will Hopoate, Joe Galuvao, and Shane Rodney. Leeds had lost Danny Buderus and Ali Lauitiiti.

Remember this wasn’t Gold Coast or Canberra, this was the best team in the NRL and they were beaten by Leeds. Even if you make every excuse under the sun, we do have a relative indication of quality. If the best team in the NRL aren’t well prepared they will get beat by Leeds. If the best team in the NRL aren’t well prepared and they get beat by Leeds, Imagine what Leeds would do to some of the pretty poor sides at the bottom of the NRL?

No, what you've done is read it wrong just so you can give the reply you want to give to try put yourself on the front foot in this debate. He never said the NRL and SL are comparable, he said he didn't think that SL is second-rate. He even said the NRL has a more consistantly high standard but you've ignored this to give the reply that put you on the offensive.

What he, myself and others are trying to say is that whilst you think SL is second-rate, many others don't share this opinion. That is not us saying SL is as good or better than NRL, just not second-rate.....and yes their is a difference. In football they have the English, Spainish and Italian leagues, now only 1 can be deemed the best but would anybody suggest the other 2 are second-rate because of that??? Not at all.



Really? Because i've seen fans of all clubs (barring Wigan) congratulate Sinfield on winning. Some fans from other teams have also disagreed with it but mearly suggest that they would've picked someone else, it seems only the Wigan (again) fans feel some injustice and embarrassment to the sport has taken place and want some sort of inquiry and voting change.




Read above answer





Yes, just like how you think everybody should follow your opinion that SL is 2nd rate.





I see that after I dismantled the voting selections of the Balloon d'Or that you kept mentioning before (but have strangely not mentioned since, or commented on my findings) that you are still sticking to this system. How about I list the voting again in this 'oh so much more authoritative' award?

- Steven Gerrard voting for old teamMATE Xavi Alonso
- Darren Fletcher voting for old teamMATE Cristiano Ronaldo
- Lionel Messi voting for his current teamMATES Xavi and Ineista
- Iker Casillas voting for current teamMATES Sergio Ramos and Ronaldo
- Gianluigi Buffon voting for national teamMATE Andrea Pirlo
- Argentina coach picking countrymen Messi and Aguero as his top 2.
- Germany coach picking countrymen Ozil and Neuer as his top 2.
- Italy coach picking countrymen Pirlo and Buffon as his top 2.
- Spain coach picking countrymen Casillas, Xavi and Ineista as his top 3.
- Sweden coach picking countryman Ibrahimovic as his number 1.
- 2 time African Footballer of the Year Didier Drogba picking up quite a lot of his votes from African countries.

And whilst we on about voting processes, why is it only the Golden Boot that has you demanding the removal of media from voting for things? Why aren't you crying foul at the awarding of the Lance Todd & Harry Sunderland honours??? Is it because one of your 'precious' NRL players isn't involved......whose one-eyed about certain players now?

....................

As for your view that Leeds' playoff run was based on a darting run from Burrow, an occasional strong run from Peacock and a kick from Sinfield. Well either
- you didn't watch the games properly
- you know extremely little about RL
- your mind is so closed to SL and Leeds that your evaluation of what you see is determined before the players step out onto the pitch.

That you say no British player should be consided for the Golden Boot whilst the NRL is ahead of SL means its likely to be the last one. It's also the reason why I deem your views and opinions so lowly as you've effectively ruled out any British player for the next 20 years at least and nobody knows who will come along in that time player-wise. It also shows that views on players/teams are already made and won't be altered whatever happens.

Finally, you talk about integrity and transparency quite a lot which is quite funny, because from this thread I can see it's crystal clear that the only way someone gains integrity in your mind is to agree with exactly what you think. Yourself and integrity are complete strangers.

Read it and weep losers!



SIR Kevin Sinfield -

Just on the misconception that the WCC is heavily weighted in favour of the SL side, is it not fair to say that as the Australian salary cap is more than double ours it's actually weighted heavily in their favour? After all, they're already so far ahead that we're 'second rate' so surely even an underprepared champion side from NRL should wipe the floor with any SL side???

Oh, and the Melbourne Storm 'victory' of 2009 was achieved whilst cheating the salary cap and is thus invalid. Sorry if that's another unnecessary dig at your beloved Storm Fylde.

Exactly.

If the difference was that big, then the NRL team would always win. I don’t think anyone would argue the NRL is above SL, just some fanboys who generally have very little actual experience in the game, massively over-estimate it.

Fylde_warrior aka william eve or Keith Swiftcorn has reeled in a big fish here and is not going to let him go until he has heard the usual full on sermen/spiel.the usual rubbish of how our competion is excrement and how out of this world the NRL is that us Leeds fans get every year.

Fylde Warrior is definitely not me, though I do agree with most of what he/she has wrote



My contributions to the Golden Boot debate were made several weeks before the winner was even announced as you can see [url=http://viewtopic.php?p=17205741&tsmp=1358515774#p17205741[uHERE[/u[/url and [url=http://viewtopic.php?p=17206333&tsmp=1358516035#p17206333[uHERE[/u[/url

Nah I know it got mentioned before but I don't think it's Eve/Swiftcorn. His spelling & punctuation are always at 100% and he has a skill of delivering a retort with one-liners and also replies that are much harder to pick apart and build a response to than Fylde's.
Fylde's 'don't cheap-shot Melbourne's salary cap woes, it's not fair' is very un-Swiftcorn-like too.

Agh, i was sure it was you however, if i am mistaken i do apologies



very like you though, a relation??

As far as Leeds losses go, this make's interesting reading.....

Out of Leeds' 11 losses the team who beat us lost the previous week 8 times out of 11..............one eye on the champions perhaps???

Compare with others
TEAM (LOSSES) Opposition lost week before - Opposition won week before

LEEDS (L11) 8-3
............................
HULL (L10) 2-8
CATALANS (L9) 4-5
SAINTS (Licon_cool.gif 0-8
WIRE (L6) 1-5
WIGAN (L6) 2-3 (1 result not applicable as it happened in the 1st week)
TOTAL (L39) 9-29

*Wire's sole defeat when they put a weakened team out against Salford.
*One of Wigan's defeats when they rested key players against Widnes.

See people accuse Leeds of not trying during the regular season, I'd say the actual answer is teams trying harder against Leeds than others and focus more on putting one over on the reigning SL & WCC holders at the expense of the previous week's fixture.

No, it didn't make interesting reading.

Because it didn't help your view

It just didn't mean anything, with a ridiculous (paranoid or egotistical) assumption at the end of it.

Yes, paranoid and egotistical......just 2 of the reasons some fans of other teams won't entertain the findings I had.

The third being it didn't mean anything.

I do not need to justify something to myself or make excuses. I have spent me entire life watching British teams get beaten year after year by their Australasian counterparts.

Australians are generally fair minded people. I sat amongst their tour party at Elland Road the day the did a number on Ellery and shut him out to secure another Ashes victory. Laurie Nichols (RIP) was shadow boxing in his singlet and the Roo fans were telling a younger member of my part, 'Do not worry, it is cyclical, we can remember when Britain used to beat Aus, it will happen again'. 30 years later those polite words of comfort have proven untrue.

1979 Australia 3–0 Great Britain

1982 Great Britain 0–3 Australia

1984 Australia 3–0 Great Britain

1986 Great Britain 0–3 Australia

1988 Australia 2–1 Great Britain

1990 Great Britain 1–2 Australia

1992 Australia 2–1 Great Britain

1994 Great Britain 1–2 Australia

1995 World Cup
7 October England 20–16 Australia
28 October 1995 Australia 16 - 8 England

1999 22 October Australia 42–6 Great Britain TRI

2000 World Cup
28 October England 2 – 22 Australia

2001 Great Britain 1–2 Australia

2003 Great Britain 0–3 Australia

2004 TRI
30 October Australia 12–8 Great Britain
13 November Great Britain 24–12 Australia

2005 TRI
11-05 Australia 20–6 Great Britain
11-19 Australia 26–14 Great Britain

2006 TRI
4 November Australia 12–23 Great Britain
8 November Australia 33–10 Great Britain

2008 World Cup
2 November Australia 52–4 England

2009 4N
31 October England 16–26 Australia
14 November England 16–46 Australia

2010 4N
Sunday, 31 October Australia 34 – 14 England

2011 4N
5 November 2011 England 20 – 36 Australia
19 November 2011 Australia 30 – 8 England

And Smokey want to chew the cud arguing the WCC is meaningful when for the past 50 years GB/England have been routinely beaten by Australia, sometimes by NZ too. Oddly too, the presence of SIR Kev

has had no impact whatsoever.

Why are Leeds fans and many British people incapable of being impartial, objective and unbiased. I support Wigan, I would not have given Faz the GB for the very same reason I would not have given it KS. Neither has EVER been the best player in the world.

Quite odd really how the WCC becomes a real measure for Leeds fan when they win it, or England beating Wales and France a real measure for Sadler et al WHEN THE FACTS ARE THERE FOR ALL TO SEE. For 50 years the Aussies have dominated GB / England because they are superior. Why are they superior? Coaching & better players.

Joe Public have EXCUSES. The British RL media have no excuse.

If the British RL media want to celebrate genuine world class British RL then they should;

1). Launch a campaign to get the remaining players from this era recognised;

1958 Australia 1–2 Great Britain
1959 Great Britain 2–1 Australia
1962 Australia 1–2 Great Britain

Far more deserving and a greater recognition of world class talent.

2). Launch a campaign to secure the George Hotel. Perhaps the RFL should sell Red Hall and move into part of it.

However, let us not kid ourselves that British RL is the equal of Australian RL. No player playing in SL can rightfully win the GB.

Leed fan



Do you actually know what second rate means? Oh I forgot you are a member of the SPAG police



Second rate - 'second in importance' 'inferior or mediocre'

British RL is second in importance, it is inferior and/or mediocre

If you do not agree, if you want to write off what I say. Listen to someone like a Mal Reilly and people of similar ilk.

You cannot hold a competition up / a country up as playing elite RL / fabulous RL when for 50 years we have been getting beaten time and time again. Whatsmore Kevin Sinfield has been part of those defeats for the best part of his career. Nothing wrong with being part of a losing team unless several Leeds fans seem to think the poor man has mahical qualities and is the worlds best RL platers



The only player in my lifetime that was British and had a genuine claim to be the worlds best was Ellery Hanley.

Fans of every RL club like Kevin Sinfield. The vast majority (not just Wigan which shows you to anti Wigan) are totally bemused by the award when the recipient is not the best player in the world,, nor has he ever been.

I have no connection to any character or person that you fantasise over.

It is a he