You're welcome
Strange though that you wouldn't want the best player in the world at your club though isn't it. I'd have S tomkins in a flash if offered though.

Id think up an insult just to join in, but Oscar Wilde couldnt think of a put down which makes you look more idiotic than this post. Your strawmen and misrepresentations are of no interest to anyone, we are pretty clear that Sinfield didnt say that he would only give it to a player known for their individual skill, the fact he chose one who is, no more indicates that Sinfield believes the Golden Boot should only go to people known for their individual skill than it would, had he chosen Fuifui Moimoi, indicate he believes it should only be given to people with funny names. The logical fallacy you have fallen into would have been avoided by a child.

I would pick Kaisaiano from the bulldogs as we need a real barnstorming prop.and would take cronk from the Storm as would be a great link up with Sinfield.

another example that all people will have their own opinions.It seems too many people on here are finding that fact very hard to accept!

Oh, and we already have the worlds best player thanks!

But he chose Sam Tomkins. You can't argue against what he actually said. He chose exactly the sort of player I've been saying all along is more suited to the award. A player who fits the profile of previous winners much more closely; a player with outstanding individual talent who displayed it, for the most part, throughout the whole of 2012.

And you've yet to explain what Sam Tomkins is known for, if it isn't his outstanding individual talents.

I realise Kevin Sinfield is your hero; your idol. You probably have a Kevin Sinfield calendar and mousemat. Your dog is probably called 'Sinny'. But this utterly blinkered defence of him is embarrassing you. No-one is saying he's not an outstanding RL player, just that 'international player of the year' was not the correct award. The reasons have been given ad nauseam. The fact you take such serious umbrage at what is in fact only a minor slight, is extremely childish and rather sad.

It seems you're going into 'fingers in ears la la la la' mode, I don't expect a constructive reply.

Nobody is, Just highlighting what he actually said rather than what you have made up. No he chose a specific player, he didnt chose a sort of player, a type of player or anything else, a specific player. You have then assumed his reasons for that, despite him giving us his reasons, whilst chastising another poster for doing exactly the same thing. The only difference between what you are doing and what The Printer did is that what you say fits in with your standpoint, what The Printer said didnt.
If you think Wally Lewis is more a 'Sam Tomkins type of player' than 'Kevin Sinfield type of player' then you know nothing of Rugby League.
Being a dirty, niggly player, whining, throwing a hissy fit and turning his back on the play allowing Leeds to score, his coach whining about how precious he is, embarrasing the game on national TV by swearing at fans, Though i dont think these are reasons Sinfield nominated him for Golden Boot, but they are things he is known for. Maybe Sinfield only thinks people who have brothers who were Pro RL players should win it? The exact same logic applies when you ignore the circularity of your standpoint.

If that’s the narrative you need to write to hide what a fool you are, crack on, makes no difference to me. Clearly you are wrong, how do I know you are wrong? How are demonstrably wrong? Because the reasons you have given and the criteria you apply are meaningless, you are trying to change them because for some reason you cannot accept that some people within the game’s view of Sinfield and the Golden Boot are different from yours.

You don’t get to decide that it is the wrong award for him, you didn’t give him the award the criteria you apply and the opinion you have are irrelevant. The Golden Boot was voted for by the people who voted for it, they applied the criteria they decided defined ‘the best’ and they awarded him the prize. Your blinkered and bitter view has no effect whatsoever. You are wrong on the criteria applied, you are wrong on what it is for. That isn’t an opinion, it is demonstrable fact.

But hey, keep on applying your own criteria, keep telling everyone what the award should be for and what it should be about, it doesnt alter the fact the people who actually run it dont agree with you, in fact they dont agree with you to such an extent as to actually come on here, read our argument and say that you are wrong. Its on this page, Martyn Sadler has come on here and actually said that the reasons Sinfield won and the reason Tomkins, Barba et al didnt are the reasons I am telling you. It literally could not be more definitive that you have been proven wrong.

Why dont you start your own award? Kevin Sinfield's achievement was reported in national newspapers and in othe countries. Lets see how much prestige is given to some sad sack bitter Wigan fan watching a Best Tries of year compilation to judge the best player in the world.

Probably half the posts on this thread are made up of you and Flyde desperately trying to display exactly why Sinfield is not worthy of the award - joined by a point blank refusal to accept opinions contrary to yours, yet someone else standing by their opinion is embarassing and childish?

Yes I'm a Leeds fan, yes I'm a big admirer of Sinfield, but somehow this makes my opinion less valid?

You don't value his qualities in the same way as some others do, that's your prerogative, however whereas I have said he is a worthy winner of the award but not that he necessarily should have won it (also known as making allowances for other opinions), you have steadfastly refused to accept that he has any entitlement to the award whatsoever, no ifs buts or maybes, just a big fat no. Doesn't that sound a touch childish? This absolute stance of yours also puts the onus on to you to provide unequivocal support to your argument and this is something you have failed to do (IMO) yet, you still stand there, poking and prodding and making the same argument. Also I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse with regards to Sinfield's quote on Tomkins, it's clear to anyone with half a brain that Sinfield always deflects personal praise on to team mates so you could have predicted he would say this. Doesn't mean he didn't mean it, but let's at least be honest about the context.

Finally, in just about every key victory Leeds have had for the past two years, Sinfield has almost always been the key figure. Take any one player out of the side and swap them for their Wigan, Saints or Wire counterpart and I believe we would still have achieved most, if not all of those victories. Take Sinfield out and I just can't see it happening, honestly. I don't believe that there is anyone else in the European game who can do what he does in terms of leadership and game control, and to me that makes him a worthy winner.

Read it again. I've not said he's not worthy of the award, but was he really the best international player in 2012? Based on the reasons given several times, I would have to say no. Leeds and Sinfield had a great play-off/grand final run and won the WCC. The rest of the time they were pretty average. England didn't have an international competition worth mentioning. How can he be international player of the year?


It makes it biased.


No, wrong again. I've said repeatedly he is worthy of the award - but only as a career award, not as international player of 2012.

As for what Sinfield said - it's there in black and white. You can try and water it down all you like, but he said it. He attributed his success to the team, but he then singled out an individual and said not only would he have expected him to win, he would have voted for him. That's pretty specific.


I won't argue with any of that, and I've never said anything to the contrary. If anything, I've been singing his praises more than most, which is something you've all been ignoring.

But the award is for 2012, not the past two years. Leeds had a pretty average 2012 until September. England did nothing of note. Does a single WCC win and a good play-off run really deserve international player of the year?

la la la la la fingers in ears.



You're just repeating yourself and frankly most of your post is nonsense. If you can't respond with anything of any substance, don't bother.

It couldn’t be simpler, it couldn’t be more obvious. You were wrong, proven wrong, the guy who actually gave out the award has actually bothered to come on here and tell you what im telling you is correct. There is literally no more definitive way of showing you that you are wrong. If that cant prove it to you nothing can. Enjoy your delusion.

Unfounded repetition seems to be your only debating technique. You've proven nothing. And I don't care who came on here, I don't have to agree with him (I notice he's done a runner when questioned directly). Fact is, it's the weakest Golden Boot in RL history, and unfortunately nothing can change that.

But that's not a fact, that's your opinion dressed up as fact, and that's something you've done a lot on this thread. Oh, and previously when you claim you have never said he doesn't deserve the award, you can't follow that up by saying that it shouldn't be for International Player of the Year 2012, because that what the award is, you either think he's worthy or he's not and you've stated, categorically and repeatedly that he's not, so why bother denying it? It's bewildering.

Also, his average 2012 up until September did manage to include beating the NRL champs in Feb and guiding Leeds to an August Challenge Cup final, not really 'average' is it?

One panel say's he's the worlds greatest player this year. One panel didn't put him in the shortlist for MOS. One panel said he wasn't good enough for the dream team. None of it is fact, it is all opinion and i'm with the ones that said he's not.

As I've REPEATEDLY said: he's worthy of it as a career award, but not as international player of the year for 2012.


I've REPEATEDLY acknowledged the WCC win and the CC run. Their regular league campaign (the majority of the season) was pretty average.

And that is all this really is, opinion, and you're perfectly entitled to yours.







Even if it is wrong

And you really believe that Kevin sinfield is the greatest rugby league player in the world? we're not talking great guy deserves recognition. We're talking about 'this is the man', the guy that is going to make things happen, above his peers.

Im afraid you do. You dont get to decide what an award is for and what the criteria is to win it. The peopel who award it and vote for do. They have outright told you that Sinfield's qualities which you for some reason have decided dont class as individual skills were more important than being on the best NRL tries of year award and thats why he won the award.

You can rate being on the best NRL tries of year compilation as high as you like. Lots of children love it. But you cant tell people they were wrong for awarding someone a prize, for meeting the criteria they used to decide it.

If you want to use different criteria, set up your own award, but you are clearly and demonstrably wrong to say that the Golden Boot isnt the award for Sinfield. It is.

Someone needs to explain to you what a fact is.

I don't know what it is about this that's so difficult for you to understand. The Golden Boot Award (according to Wiki at least) is awarded to the player adjudged to be the best in the world for the year just gone. That is what it is. Not a lifetime achievement award, not a 'who did most in the international game that year' award, but who is the best player in the world. That's what the panel think he is, at the moment.

You have made it perfectly clear that, in your eyes, he is not that player, so please stop trying to make out that you haven't said that. You have, loud and clear, and REPEATEDLY.



But by September Leeds had won 20 competitive games. Twenty. Wigan had won 23. Is the difference between a good period (as Wigans early season dominance is rightly regarded as) and a pretty average one really three extra victories? Is three extra victories better than winning a trophy and getting to a final? To say Leeds were average before September is to pick and choose the areas you're focusing on and is just plain wrong.

How would you decide that? how do you compare Sam Kasiano to Ben Barba? Nate Myles to Cam Smith? Sam Tomkins to Kevin Sinfield? How do you decide who is the better player a prop or a centre? A fullback or a hooker?

Players can 'make it happen' in massively different ways, Greg Inglis will 'make it happen' in a different way to how Robbie Farah would, who in turn would 'make it happen' in a different way to Paul Gallen.

In terms of 'making it happen' Sinfield does it through his game control and influence, not as eye-catching but in my opinion more important.

The way I see it, If i was the Halifax or Fev coach, and the RFL said to me you are starting in SL next year, you can sign one player to improve your squad and lead you to the most wins possible. I would choose Sinfield. The likes of Tomkins, Burrow etc would be way down the list, behind the likes of Roby, Mike Monaghan, Dureau, probably even Dobson and Brough.

Not really when one party is only guilty of giving out an award and the other party is bordering on libel.



Whereas I suppose you don't agree with people who have the same view as you???



I like to know where I said he didn't mean it.......oh wait I didn't, now who is claiming to know what others are thinking?
I never claimed to know what he was thinking, I showed he has a history of praising others when the spotlight is turned on him.

The point I was making, which clearly went straight over your head, is that when you say ''even Sinfield doesn't think he should have won it'', the evidence you use (of him praising Tomkins) needs to be taken into context with how Sinfield has always responded to personal praise.
Another point to consider is that his 'would-be-vote' of Tomkins came after the news of the Aussies complaining about the Sinfield pick and downplaying SL, perhaps turning around and picking an Aussie as his choice didn't seem too appealing after that.
Yet another point? Tomkins 'would have' been his pick, now he may have only meant from the other 5 on the shortlist. If he could choose from anybody in world RL then it's a possibility he might of picked differently. Maybe, maybe not, we can't be sure, i'll leave others on here to pass off theories and suggestions as facts.

As the last quote shows he also said the Golden Boot ''represent the whole team'' so you could say he thinks each of his Leeds teammates are just as deserving going by what he said.

Isn't being the captain and leader of a team that has won 6 GF, 3 WCC, 2 LLS in the last 9 years and winning 2 Harry Sunderland awards making enough 'happen' for you?
If deciding the fate of the Super League trophy with back-to-back MOM performances against the two teams who finished 1st and 2nd isn't making things 'happen' then I don't know what is.........oh wait, I forgot, he doesn't have a lightening turn of pace.

You're not very clever, are you? Or you're the one being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, I've repeatedly said I don't think he's the best player in the world, but I've also said he deserves the award (or 'an' award) as acknowledgement of his achievements, just not for being "international player of the year" (TotalRL's own definition) for 2012. But that's not good enough for you? I HAVE to call him the best in the world before you're happy?!! Wow.

The fact that Martyn Sadler had to justify the award speaks volumes. And he could only justify it by saying Sinfield is a "supreme captain", and by quoting kicking statistics. And then by bigging up the grand final. Even Sadler couldn't bring himself to say 'best player in the world'.
[i"Kevin can't move as quickly as Ben Barba, or with the elusiveness of Sam Tomkins, while Cameron Smith's ability close to the ruck is surely second to none. But Sinfield is a supreme captain, and only Cameron Smith can rival his leadership, while Sinfield's goal-kicking success rate in 2012 was 82.84%, compared to 69.64% for Smith."[/i

As someone on another forum put it:
Leeds Player of the year - Ryan Hall
SL Dream Team 6 and 13 - Finch and O'Loughlin
Man of Steel - not shortlisted
World XIII 6 and 13 - Thurston and Gallen
Golden Boot (international player of the year) - yep! Kevin Sinfield!




No, the league table tells me they were pretty average.

Deary me Mr Sadler is that the best you can do. I read an LP where either yourself or somebody of similar standing was bigging up a Leeds fan (not acknowledged in the publication) Jim Slade explaining why Kevin Sinfield was the rightful GB winner. 99% of people supporting Kevin Sinfield as GB winner seem to be Leeds fans too. How odd or maybe not.

I have repeatedly stated that Kevin Sinfield is a consumate professional and a role model for any young person to aspire to. However, like numerous peiople I felt the assumption Kevin Sinfield was the best player in the world in 2012 beggared belief.

First and foremost to play in SL whether it be for Leeds, Wigan whomever. For a British player to be able to win the GB they would have to play in the NRL or British RL surpass Australasia as the dominant RL force in the world. You cannot be the best in the world if you play in a secong tier competition. I will not pretend British RL is wonderful because I do not have to. It is your job whether you believe it or not. I do not have a high opinion of modern media, particularly RL. Harry Edgar or Martyn Sadler I know which I rate higher.

I actually think SL has overall gone backwards. We were closer to Australasia pre SL and if you compare say the talent and ability of the top 5 SL squads year on year it was stronger in the past. Personally, I think the SKY cash cow was wasted for short term aims rather than looking long term. Give it is my opinion that SL is not progressing then the fact Leeds are winning GFs through experience and continuity in key positions, playing conservatively and waiting for the opposition to commit suicide is not spectacular nor amazing. It is a sad indicement of SL in 2012.

Worse despite Leeds fans arguing that Kevin turns loaves and fish into miracles he has somehow been unable to perform for much of the regular season, not cut it at Wembley as he did not previously. Leeds fans like every man are hypocritical. Such short memories, 'get rid of Brian Mac he is an idiot' 'our team are useless and ageing' has followed after runs of defeats or a bad defeat. Sports fans are fickle.

Ultimately though the Origin and NRL is true elite sport. Hence, I would not vote for any GB winner playing in SL and not competing against Australia / NZ in any given year. The most spectacular feat in present day RL is the Queensland domination of Origin despite incredible efforts on the part of NSW in a true elite contest.

You then throw in reasonable international competition and the NRL there is no alternative but to seek a winner from Australasia.

Silly threats. Every comment here was taken from other posters on RLfans and other forums incl LP ones. The defensive response to the dismay many have felt at such a poor decision is in my opinion knowing that the election was at best very questionable at worst plain wrong.

People can talk about opinions / beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Until the award is transparent, with those voting and their selections whomever runs this award is very much on the back foot. The excuse as to why that was not the case was lame in my opinion. I would personally prefer players and/or coaches to select such awards. The media should be excluded as they are as high subjective as we fans. Awards made by peers carry far more authority. The award should say who voted and their 3 choices. Some people may not like it that 'flash' players get greater recognition but that has always been so. For every magical player you can find numerous defenders in football or forward trojans in League. Ask any manager / coach.

Kevin Sinfield is a thoroughly nice person I believe. The best player in the world he is not. Nor is anybody playing British RL. You cannot have elite RL being usurped by a second tier standard of RL. I hate the fact it is that way but people in very important positions have been trying to 'kid' us since 1982 that it was not so. You genuinely have to go back to 1962 to find the last era when British RL was arguably the best in the world. How sad is that.

Honesty and transparency are essential to progress.

Fylde Warrior, you're perfectly entitled to believe that Kevin Sinfield isn't the best player in the world, or that the NRL is a better competition than Super League, or that Harry Edgar is a fine, upstanding individual.
What irritated me about your previous posts were your innuendos against me, and particularly against my colleague John Drake, who I work with every day and whose integrity is probably as great as anyone else I know. That's why I would like to know who you are, and who your connections are that have persuaded you to make those assertions, particularly when you consciously created an identity on here through which you could make them.
On the transparency issue, I don't know any award in Rugby League in which the voting panel is either revealed or their votes revealed.
We did it for the last few years with the Golden Boot, but some of the judges felt uncomfortable with the reaction they got from some supporters because of the way they voted. So we have now reverted to the same system that is used for most awards in sport and entertainment, and that used to be operated by Harry Edgar when he ran Open Rugby.
I agree that it's interesting to see how people vote. But you would have had more credibility on this issue if you had objected to the RLIF not making the votes public when it decided that Cameron Smith was its player of the year, or the RFL when not revealing the votes that gave Sam Tomkins the Man of Steel award.
And what about the IRB deciding that Dan Carter was the RU international player of the year?
And I suppose you will get very upset when we learn the results of the Oscars, and we are not told who has voted for all the winners at the Oscar ceremony.
In fact the only award I can think of that is truly transparent is the Albert Goldthorpe Medal, which we run in League Express.
And one final point.
The Golden Boot isn't awarded to the most consistent player (Scott Dureau won the AG Medal for that), the most exciting player (probably Ben Barba), the most elusive player (Sam Tomkins), the hardest working player (Nate Myles, perhaps), the best player around the ruck (Cameron Smith).
It's awarded to the best player in the world, taking into account all his qualities, including the way he inspires his team-mates, and that was clearly Kevin Sinfield in 2012, although I'll grant you that Cameron Smith also had a brilliant season. Just not quite good enough to win the Golden Boot.
I would also just remind you, when you talk about sub-standard competitions, that on the only two occasions when Super League teams played against NRL teams in 2012, the Super League teams won both matches. Warrington travelled to Sydney to beat Souths, and Leeds beat Manly.
That's a funny way to be second rate!

At least we know you voted for Kevin



On a serious note. Do you (you must obviously) truly believe it is possible to be the best player in the world playing in a second tier competition? Obviously it is an opinion but standards in SL have if anything gone down with finances tightening, the now healthy Aus $ to £ tigthening of loopholes. Squads are weaker season on season and as I say try comparing the top 5 squads year after year for the last 10 seasons. If those with the power to make things happen had truly invested in youth development at the onset of SL / SKY then we may now have an abundance of young talent. I know we pretend we do but comparatively we do not, our players take longer to develop and fewer do which is why we are second rate to Australia and have been throughout my lifetime. We look at youth development as a last resort. Like many I am not convinced the academy changes were born out of anything but finance. The weakness of SL is reflected by the ease that converting from PT to FT now enables Championship players to become top SL / International players.

British RL is second rate. There is no crime as some to think to be blunt about it. If as I think it is patently obvious but I fully expect you to say otherwise that we are a second tier competition, you cannot award a world best award to ANY SL player. If it was Sam Tomkins I would say exactly the same. To my mind, only Ellery Hanley can truly claim to have been the best player in the world since the award began. Sorry Mr Schofield who has a much better claim than Kevin Sinfield.

Why not use a peers voting panel? 12 coaches / captain from the Southern Hemisphere and 12 coaches / captains from the Northern Hemisphere.

Therein lies the greatest issue with justifying this award Mr Sadler

You do yourself a great disservice to try to argue a 'loaded' WCC and a 'friendly' victory assert to SL / British RL being somehow comparable to Australasia. Lets take the WCC to Australia and in their season and honestly what do you forsee as the result? Even better as we once did lets expand the WCC and truly show just how on a par we really are.

If Kevin Sinfield is so inspirational why do Leeds lose so many games, some very badly, stink at Wembley. Imagine Leeds playing in the NRL. I would safely wager Leeds will struggle to win a 1/4 of the game they take part in with the 'best player in the world'

The so called basis for arguing Kevin is the worlds best player are so flimsy and so full of holes.

Worse, the lack of honesty as to what we are / where we stand is one of the biggest factors in why we lag behind Australasia and have done for so long. Far more esteemed figure in this sport than you, I or anybody here used to pretend otherwise from 1982 onwards. One of the strngths of Open Rugby in this era was that it was totally honest about standards and quality.

For whatever reasons offered it always creates the impression those deciding upon the award were desparate for a British winner and to reward Kevin Sinfield as he reaches the last stage of his playing career. 2012 with no credible opposition for England was the optimum time to pull it off.

Hopefully people can see why peers should vote for awards and not the media or fans.