Im sure you can provide us with the figures to prove that fewer people are attending challenge cup, international and lower league games as a whole. You clearly have the time to, and are telling us you are able to.

Crack on………….

So why did fewer people watch it?

I've provided the reference above. If it's too hard for you to research the reference, just say so.

Perhaps you might like to crack on with providing figures for [url=http://viewtopic.php?p=17504260&tsmp=1376058574#p17504260this earlier assertion of yours[/url?

No?

Thought not.

Its your assertion, you prove it.

Ask and you shall recieve

Blake Solly said: "2013 will also see more commercial income flow into Rugby League than at any time in its history and with a growing stable of sponsors and partners on board, the sport is approaching the new season with confidence.

[uUPDATE...[/u
[uSL Round 24 attendances - comparison to same fixtures last year[/u

Salford V Leeds in 2013 = 3,235
Salford V Leeds in 2012 = 6,891
% decrease = -53.05%

St Helens V London in 2013 = 9,926
St Helens V London in 2012 = 13,262
% decrease = -25.15%

Wigan V Huddersfield in 2013 = 19,620
Wigan V Huddersfield in 2012 = 16,771
% increase = +16.99%

the only figures that are important to RL are 11.5% down in the Superleague and 15.5% down in the challenge cup......the only comp I found that had comparable losses in the last 18 months was League 1 which suffered as Sheffield Wednesday went up and the Heineken Cup that had 30,000 missing seats at it's final.


I am so looking forward to the release of the 2011/2012 and 2012/2013 RFL accounts........Engage paid 1.7 million a year.......if the foxy bingo et al generate that level of cash, then I'm a chinaman





They generated more cash than last year.....that's for sure

, but seriously....do you think any of these smaller sponsors are paying up front hard cash in decent amounts you need your head looking at.

Think you might want to re-read that. It was actually Burnley vs Bolton, not Blackburn. Aside from the first 1,250 tickets which were priced at £12.50 (subsidised by the Football League as part of the 125th anniversary), the cheapest match tickets were £28 and the game was an unattractive 12.15 kick off live on telly.

I actually get a little tiresome of this "football is so expensive" lark. My Leigh season ticket cost £200 for 13 games, my Bolton one has cost £295 for 23 games. RL is truly in danger of pricing itself out of the market.

What would you consider a fair price for a SL season Ticket? I believe the average walk up price is about 20 notes....personally, I believe a ST holder should be charged at about a tenner a game.....any more than that and I believe people decide to pick and choose what games to go to and attendances suffer.

6500 ST holders at 180 a pop or 9,000 at 130.......I'd rather have the 9,000 with 2,500 more people spending cash in the ground...32,500 more shoppers over a season. The trick is, to budget for this over a 10 year period.....get people back into the habit of attending every game.....don't do it for 2 years and bank on a massive initial uptake......it has to be gradually built up.

The Long game isn't really the RFL's thing though...is it?

And you believe this?

It must be true because Nigel Wood also says so... [i"2013 will see more commercial revenue flow into the sport than at any time before and we are well placed to make the most of the opportunities that lie ahead"[/i

[url=http://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/2013/01/no-title-sponsor-no-problem-says-rugby-football-league-boss/No title sponsor, no problem says Rugby Football League boss![/url

Smokey doesn't speculate. Smokey only deals in facts and what the RFL tell him. Why should he do anything else? His ramblings are only as good as the facts he has on the table and what the professionals tell him. I felt his pain when grade B licence holders Bradford collapsed six months after KPMG rubber stamped their bid. To his credit though his forum back peddling was as smooth as any high wire unicycle circus act.

I think they will be covered by including RLWC revenues

William, Re Saints Crowd last night:

13k last year for this fixture was exceptional and 3k higher than the next highest attendance since 2000.
The crowd last night was higher than any equivalent crowd for this fixture bar 2010 and 2012 and I would bet the third highest ever attendance for this league fixture.

Looking back, neglecting last years exceptional attendance and the attendance for 2011 when Saints were playing at Widnes, the decrease is 4.5%. 2010 was an exceptional season as it was the last season at Knowsley road, plus Saints had a much more competitive season. Looking back at the corresponding fixture in 2009, we see a rise of 6% on the corresponding fixture in 2013.

The point I'm trying to make is that in order to analyse a trend you need to look at the longterm moving average, not an isolated case. Statistically you can't make sweeping statements about trends and only back your point up by one isolated case 2012 - 2013, you need to look at the longterm trend to smooth out statistical blips, like teams moving into a new ground, stockmarket crashes, whatever. Taking a 3 point moving average, which is a pretty common statistical technique, the trend is inexorably to rise.

The only way that you're going to put your argument to bed is to look at the complete aggregate attendances for rugby league, IE the total no. of people in each given season that went through a turnstile. I would suggest taking a period from 1980 to 2013, that way you have a good snapshot (a similar length of time) from prior to Superleague. You could break aggregates down per competition to back up the points on Cup attendances. It might be worth hiving off Lancashire and Yorkshire cup comps as well as they'll distort the statistics. It would be worth recording them for comparison though.

My prediction is that if you just take aggregates for regular league, premiership and challenge cup to roughly compare like with like, the total no. of individual turnstile clicks for RL matches will be to slowly rise since 1996. The data will probably show that the attendance at second and third tier matches has declined as has that for the challenge cup, but the rise in SL attendances will make up with that. I would love to be proven wrong though! I would do this myself, but I don't have the data, but I bet some statto has all the required Rothams books to do the calcs. Once someone has put together the spreadsheet, as a service to RL I'm happy to use my software engineering skills to put this data up online in a queryable database for the general public to peruse!

I doubt the attendances are that much different outside of SL. If you took the biggest clubs out of div 1&2 who had been relegated from SLtbe year previously out then crowds would be similar. I certainly remember going toRovers in div3 with sub 1000 crowds and mostly sub 2000 crowds in div2 and we were one of the best supported clubs in those leagues.

I agree JB. I recall attendances in the lower leagues being pretty underwhelming when I first started following the game. Certainly only Keighley were pulling them in in half decent numbers.

I think a-lot of folk have rose tinted glasses about times gone by and tend to remember the 60s. The 70s were pretty dire and unless you were a Wigan fan, so were the 80s and early 90s. Things are not brilliant at the moment as media profile of the game is well down compared to 20 years ago and the international game is appalling, but attendances, quality of the teams and stadia has taken a massive leap forward.

What's the alternative? Invent something, lie, or make it up?

Sorry I forgot who I was talking to.............

It's a better plan than just falling for the ramblings of a lonely attention whore like billy

[uSL Round 24 attendances - comparison to same fixtures last year[/u

Salford V Leeds in 2013 = 3,235
Salford V Leeds in 2012 = 6,891
% decrease = -53.05%

St Helens V London in 2013 = 9,926
St Helens V London in 2012 = 13,262
% decrease = -25.15%

Wigan V Huddersfield in 2013 = 19,620
Wigan V Huddersfield in 2012 = 16,771
% increase = +16.99%

Warrington V Wakefield in 2013 = 9,250
Warrington V Wakefield in 2012 = 10,686
% decrease = -13.44%

Bradford V Catalan in 2013 = 7,850
Bradford V Catalan in 2012 = 10,610
% decrease = -26.01%

Hull KR V Hull in 2013 = 8,874
Hull KR V Hull in 2012 = 9,086
% decrease = -2.33%

Widnes V Castleford in 2013 = 5,155
Widnes V Castleford in 2012 = 4,501
% increase = +14.53%

Total Attendance in SL Round 24 = 63,910 (Avg: 9,130)
Total Attendance same fixtures last year = 71,807 (Avg: 10,25icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -11.00%

**********************
19,620 at the Wigan V Huddersfield game was the attendance highlight of the round, thanks to offers from Heinz which provided 5 tickets for £30, Groupon which provided 4 tickets for £29 and freebies to bump up the numbers. Bradford's 'Bring a Buddy for £5" may have made an impact on their attendance today but it was still down by over 26% on the corresponding fixture last year.

**********************
2 out of 7 fixtures in Round 24 have shown an increase in attendance compared to the same SL fixtures last year. 5 out of 7 fixtures in Round 24 have shown a decrease in attendance compared to the same SL fixtures last year.

**********************
Out of 161 fixtures played thus far in 2013 (not including magic weekend fixtures), 41 out of 161 have shown an increase in attendance compared to the corresponding SL fixtures last year. 120 out of 161 fixtures have shown a decrease in attendance compared to the corresponding SL fixtures last year.

[uRound 1 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 64,387 (Avg: 9,19icon_cool.gif
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 63,376 (Avg: 9,054)
% increase = +1.59%

[uRound 2 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 69,809 (Avg: 9,973)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,989 (Avg: 10,284)
% decrease = -3.03%

[uRound 3 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 58,711 (Avg: 8,387)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,246 (Avg: 10,17icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -17.59%

[uRound 4 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 58,948 (Avg: 8,421)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 68,803 (Avg: 9,829)
% decrease = -14.32%

[uRound 5 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 50,207 (Avg: 7,172)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 57,593 (Avg: 8,22icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -12.82%

[uRound 6 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 67,079 (Avg: 9,583)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,439 (Avg: 10,206)
% decrease = -6.10%

[uRound 7 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 57,048 (Avg: 8,150)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 69,941 (Avg: 9,992)
% decrease = -18.43%

[uRound 8 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 52,247 (Avg: 7,464)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 69,575 (Avg: 9,939)
% decrease = -24.91%

[uRound 9 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 80,429 (Avg: 11,490)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 81,841 (Avg: 11,692)
% decrease = -1.73%

[uRound 10 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 57,882 (Avg: 8,269)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,601 (Avg: 10,229)
% decrease = -19.16%

[uRound 11 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,117 (Avg: 7,874)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 62,013 (Avg: 8,859)
% decrease = -11.12%

[uRound 12 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 53,477 (Avg: 7,640)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 63,337 (Avg: 9,04icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -15.57%

[uRound 13 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 49,525 (Avg: 7,075)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 59,648 (Avg: 8,521)
% decrease = -16.97%

[uRound 14 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 68,617 (Avg: 9,802)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 80,737 (Avg: 11,534)
% decrease = -15.01%

[uRound 15 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 53,274 (Avg: 7,611)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 57,921 (Avg: 8,274)
% decrease = -8.02%

[uRound 16 MAGIC WEEKEND Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 62,042 (Avg: 8,863)
Total attendance at same event in 2012 = 63,716 (Avg: 9,102)
% decrease = -2.63%

[uRound 17 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 48,752 (Avg: 6,965)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 54,966 (Avg: 7,852)
% decrease = -11.31%

[uRound 18 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,384 (Avg: 7,912)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 56,180 (Avg: 8,026)
% decrease = -1.42%

[uRound 19 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 62,239 (Avg: 8,891)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 60,958 (Avg: 8,70icon_cool.gif
% increase = +2.10%

[uRound 20 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,617 (Avg: 7,945)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 62,218 (Avg: 8,88icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -10.61%

[uRound 21 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 64,512 (Avg: 9,216)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,206 (Avg: 10,172)
% decrease = -9.40%

[uRound 22 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 63,146 (Avg: 9,021)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,188 (Avg: 10,170)
% decrease = -11.30%

[uRound 23 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 53,062 (Avg: 7,580)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 59,266 (Avg: 8,467)
% decrease = -10.47%

[uRound 24 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 63,910 (Avg: 9,130)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,807 (Avg: 10,25icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -11.00%

[uRounds 1 to 24 Fixtures (168 in total)[/u
Total attendance for 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures in 2013 = 1,425,421 (Avg: 8,485)
Total attendance for same 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures in 2012 = 1,592,565 (Avg: 9,480)
Cumulative attendance loss = 167,144
% decrease = -10.50%

[uClub... Games... 2013... 2012... %gain/loss[/u
Leeds... 11... 167112... 165695... +0.86%
Wakefield... 11... 89246... 88575... +0.76%
Widnes... 12... 72478... 72375... +0.14%
Hull... 11... 129413... 132008... -1.97%
Hull KR... 12... 89681... 94499... -5.10%
Catalan... 11... 91161... 96625... -5.65%
Castleford... 11... 68529... 73294... -6.50%
Warrington... 12... 127840... 136831... -6.57%
Wigan... 11... 161685... 175449... -7.85%
St Helens... 12... 132768... 167404... -20.69%
Huddersfield... 12... 74033... 93644... -20.94%
London... 12... 26762... 34533... -22.50%
Bradford... 11... 95824... 131574... -27.17%
Salford... 12... 36847... 66343... -44.46%

SUBTOTAL... 161... 1363379... 1528849... -10.82%

Magic Weekend... 7... 62042... 63716... -2.63%

TOTAL... 168... 1425421... 1592565... -10.50%

[uCurrent Average Attendances V Same Fixtures Last Year[/u
[uClub... SL:2013... (SL:2012)[/u
Leeds... 15192... (15063)
Wigan... 14699... (15950)
Hull... 11765... (12001)
St Helens... 11064... (13950)
Warrington... 10653... (11403)
Bradford... 8711... (11961)
Catalan... 8287... (8784)
Wakefield... 8113... (8052)
Hull KR... 7473... (7875)
Castleford... 6230... (6663)
Huddersfield... 6169... (7804)
Widnes... 6040... (6031)
Salford... 3071... (5529)
London... 2230... (287icon_cool.gif

During the current franchised, 14 club, top 8 play-off system SL era... the total attendances in SL to date remain the lowest we have ever witnessed. Neither the replacement of the poorly-supported Crusaders with the better-supported Widnes, nor the establishment of 2 new stadia, nor the re-establishment of heavily-discounted SL tickets via cheap Groupon/BOGOF/Buddy offers has prevented 2013 SL attendances from being the worst on record so far.

[uSL Rounds 1 to 24 total attendances comparison (2009 to 2013)[/u
=#FF0000SL 2013 - 1,425,421 from 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures.
SL 2012 - 1,592,565 from same 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures.
SL 2011 - 1,492,174 from same 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**
SL 2010 - 1,448,365 from same 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**
SL 2009 - 1,456,853 from same 161 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**

[uSL 2013 % decrease in attendances[/u
V SL 2012 = -10.50%
V SL 2011 = -4.47%
V SL 2010 = -1.58%
V SL 2009 = -2.16%

[uSL attendances losses[/u
V SL 2012 = -167,144
V SL 2011 = -66,753
V SL 2010 = -22,944
V SL 2009 = -31,432

=#FF0000** except replace Widnes with Crusaders

Do you have the corresponding ticket offers for previous years? Obviously we wouldn't be able to make a fair comparison without them.

Red White and Blue army?

List of the top 80+ professional clubs around the world and their attendances in the season ended or just about to end.....
2 League clubs in the top 10 and no SL club inside the top 20.

Not sure what the RFL are going to do about it, but they do need to look long and hard at the bottom 25% which contains 8 current SL team....with Salford and London being beaten down by the 2 poor Scottish clubs and one of the Italian Club sides



Stormers 36,822
Lions/Kings 32,720
Brisbane 31,968
Reds 31,848
Bulls 28,954
Sharks 23,323
Leicester Tigers 21,244
Harlequins 21,046
Blues 20,953
Canterbury 20,939
Sydney Roosters 20,165
Cheetahs 20,078
Toulouse 19,519
Saracens 18,002
Bordeaux 17,701
Newcastle 17,564
Souths 17,532
Clermont Auvergne 17,250
Tards 16,960
New Zealand 16,765
Stade Francais 16,727
Leinster 16,525
Melbourne 16,314
Leeds Rhinos 15,912
Toulon 15,539
Crusaders 15,084
Wigan 14,699
Munster 14,699
Bayonne 14,506
Brumbies 14,287
Chiefs 14,280
Gloucester 14,004
North Queensland 13,957
Gold Coast Titans 13,869
Cronulla 13,708
Manly 13,434
Racing CF 13,145
Highlanders 13,096
Parramatta 12,855
Northampton Saints 12,812
St George Illawarra 12,575
Force 12,427
Grenoble 12,417
London Wasps 12,357
Montpellier 12,152
Rebels 11,947
Perpignan 11,872
Hull FC 11,765
Bath 11,516
Wests Tigers 11,413
St Helens 11,064
Penrith 10,862
Canes 10,850
Warrington 10,653
Ulster 10,544
Biarritz 10,327
Canberra 10,133
Ospreys 9,856
London Irish 9,471
Worcester Warriors 9,306
Bradford 8,711
Agen 8,669
Exeter Chiefs 8,367
Catalan 8,287
Wakefield 8,113
Cardiff Blues 8,055
Castres 7,780
Scarlets 7,746
HKA 7,473
Sale Sharks 7,266
Mont de Marsan 6,454
Castleford 6,230
Huddersfield 6,169
Widnes 6,040
London Welsh 5,302
Gwent Dragons 5,223
Connacht 5,149
Glasgow 4,180
Benetton Treviso 3,808
Edinburgh Reivers 3,779
Salford 3,071
Zebre 2,405
London 2,230
Queue a thousand angry HKA fans decrying the fact they are 68th out of 83......and that I haven counted their travelling millions