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| Shoulder charge is a penalty.
Head shoulder charge is a red.
I am not too fussed by the shoulder charge, for me it's the lateness. If you have the ball and are square with the play, you will protect yourself with a shoulder charge, but a late shoulder charge is basically just the same as hitting someone in the back. That's why I thought it was a Yellow, without a judgement on the head high. Even the ref said it was late, but he could not say where on the body it was.
Well in my opinion the late shot is dirty and so a Yellow. Surely he can give a Yellow and then report for the head high????
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| Quote ="theblondebomber"For me they need to get rid of the on report power to refs. It's either a penalty, yellow card or red card..'"
Agree. Never understood the on report function really, you can cite a player after the game anyway. It's a get out of a decision tool. We need to get rid of it from our game and put authority back to the referee.
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| For me, it shold be quite easy to officiate especially in televised matches. I would change the on report ruling, if the victim has to be carried off the field as result pf a late or illegal tackle then the accused leaves the field as well and is replaced.
For televised matches whilst the victim is being treated and stretchered off, i,m sure the video ref can judge if its a replacement conversion to a red card sending off.
There is alot of negativity in officiating the match game and this is one of them.
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| Quote ="el red"I find it a little hypocritical though that you blow up about this after the cup game at Craven Park where Dobson was taken out by a late shoulder charge from Wilkin (a very clean player BTW), and Welham was put out for the rest of the season by a late shoulder charge. '"
Nothing hypocritical at all. Wilkin was banned for two matches and Gardner for one, and so far as I can remember nobody on here tried to justify Wilkin's tackle although some thought Gardner's punishment harsh. HOwever, I think you'll find that Welham wasn't injured by our players.
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| Catalan were guilty of exactly the same thing against Salford earlier in the year. It caused eighteen year old Theo Fages to stop breathing and only for the quick thinking of Salford's physio the results could have been terrible.
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| Quote ="BackrowSaint"[i"I let the match commissioner know what I thought about the tackle at half-time. I thought it was nothing short of disgraceful and the reason why they've done it (not sent Taia off) is because last week (Wigan second rower) Scott Taylor deliberately hit Gareth O'Brien in the head and knocked him out.
"I believe Zeb Taia is a lovely fella and a terrific player, but they've attacked his head deliberately and he'll (Taia) get nothing because the match commissioner will be shocking about it.
"I find it absolutely downright rude and disgraceful that they (the RFL) don't protect the players in the game, in particular the small ones, who are the key players.
"It is absolutely nothing short of appalling. If one of my own players did it, I'd expect them to be sent off and then be suspended for a long, long period of time. I'm really appalled that the RFL can allow this to keep happening."[/i'"
Well said. It was a cynical challenge just like the last one designed to take out a key man. The last one should have got a ban and this one should too. The cowards at the RFL will no doubt be more bothered by Browns comments.
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| Quote ="Warrington Wolf"Do you remember Brown whilst the Hudds manager said " if my litte blokes keep getting hit and with no protection from the referee then my big blokes will sort it ou". Or something very similar.'"
He got in bother for that comment as be also said " if the rfl don't start protecting the little players, then my big players like mason and (can't think of his name) will start protecting them"
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| Quote ="el red"I have watched the 'tackle' back several times now and it is very late and a definite shoulder charge. There is contact with the head so you would expect Zeb to get at least a couple of games. I find it a little hypocritical though that you blow up about this after the cup game at Craven Park where Dobson was taken out by a late shoulder charge from Wilkin (a very clean player BTW), and Welham was put out for the rest of the season by a late shoulder charge. You rightly state that it is a game wide problem, one of our own players took out Blake Green in the cup game with Wigan by using a shoulder charge. If its illegal then start sending people off to get the message across. I hope young O'Brien is OK, and also the very best of luck for the rest of the season.'"
Both Saints players got bans. The Wigan cretin who did it didnt even get a yellow card. We'll see what happens to Cats btw
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Luckily O'Brien is okay, glass jaw as he put it on twitter. I think Brown has every right to speak out about the tackle but he might find a nice fine coming his way.
I wrote about it on my blog today, talking about Sandercocks reaction at the weekend as well. Luckily Brown is in the Super League as so far Parramattas Ricky Stuart has had $25,000 in fines this season for speaking about referees.
www.thebackline.co.uk/the-coache ... -referees/
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Luckily O'Brien is okay, glass jaw as he put it on twitter. I think Brown has every right to speak out about the tackle but he might find a nice fine coming his way.
I wrote about it on my blog today, talking about Sandercocks reaction at the weekend as well. Luckily Brown is in the Super League as so far Parramattas Ricky Stuart has had $25,000 in fines this season for speaking about referees.
www.thebackline.co.uk/the-coache ... -referees/
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| Brown also mentions that there is still one club targeting the knee joint area....I wonder which club that would be.
As regards the RFL on player protection, why don,t they show there total ineptness and accuse O,Brien of bringing the game into disrepute by his lack of vision and skill of addressing a late tackle.
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| I think the big problem for refs is its tough to see at the speed they see and they have to make a call there and then. Most of these "late shoulder charges" are after the ball has gone. I think the RFL hasn't done the refs any favours with the shoulder charge rule and its hard for them to call.
The walker tackle against Wigan is a good example. Five of us watched it back at my house the following day. Three didnt think the was contact to the head and two thought the was. That was with about 10 replays plus the sky replays. The ref is expected to make that call there and then!
The disciplinary board isn't consistent enough with their bans. One week a player is banned for something and then the next a player has nothing to answer and that's a real problem and why coaches, players and fans get so irate with them.
Another example of not being consistent on the field. Yesterday Lms threw a cracking right hand and landed flush on the frogs nose. It wasn't self defence or protecting himself, he threw the first punch and ended up in the bin (correct IMO). Few weeks back, Wardle from hudds did exactly the same thing and got sent off. Danny maguire threw a punch and didnt get put in the bin.
Three players have threw the first punch. Wardle was sent off, Lms went in the bin and Danny maguire had a warning off the ref!
The RFL need to sort this out and fast!
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| Quote ="St pete"I think the big problem for refs is its tough to see at the speed they see and they have to make a call there and then. Most of these "late shoulder charges" are after the ball has gone. I think the RFL hasn't done the refs any favours with the shoulder charge rule and its hard for them to call.
The walker tackle against Wigan is a good example. Five of us watched it back at my house the following day. Three didnt think the was contact to the head and two thought the was. That was with about 10 replays plus the sky replays. The ref is expected to make that call there and then!
The disciplinary board isn't consistent enough with their bans. One week a player is banned for something and then the next a player has nothing to answer and that's a real problem and why coaches, players and fans get so irate with them.
Another example of not being consistent on the field. Yesterday Lms threw a cracking right hand and landed flush on the frogs nose. It wasn't self defence or protecting himself, he threw the first punch and ended up in the bin (correct IMO). Few weeks back, Wardle from hudds did exactly the same thing and got sent off. Danny maguire threw a punch and didnt get put in the bin.
Three players have threw the first punch. Wardle was sent off, Lms went in the bin and Danny maguire had a warning off the ref!
The RFL need to sort this out and fast!'"
Couldn't agree more. If they miss it then fair enough. If they see it they should be consistent.
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| Im glad he is speaking out, puts him in a good light to the players, fans and board. It was late and it wasnt pretty and probably warranted a yellow card with extras coming in the next few days. I
think the On Report is a cop out too, its tougher when the games arent on Sky and the ref only has one go at it but theres 6 officials at those games, if not one of them can make a decision then i'd rather they looked into sorting that problem out because its a disgrace.
Good on LMS for giving a bit back and good craic from O'Brien on Twitter but Wilkin's line to Thaler during the game said it all, " We get bent over by you boys" talking about shoulder charges etc
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| Somebody may be able to clear this up for me and other confused species!
If an offence occurs in the plays leading up to a try, does the referee have any way of dealing with that offence (yellow card, extra penalty etc.) other than putting it on report?
I seem to think that if he gave a penalty for the shoulder charge - and even a red card he would have had to bring the play back for the offence and not allow the try to stand.
If that is the case, the RFL need to look at why this is the case since late shoulder charges (high or not) can cause serious damage - it is possibly a hole in the rules that needs to be addressed.
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| The referee can allow advatage after an infringement and then go back to issue a car or on report if its serious enough. They couldn't disallow a try and go back to give a penalty, unless there was a reason why the try couldn't be allowed, such as a knock on putting the ball down. The only other permutation is where he blows his whilstle after the penalty and if he had allowed play on a try would have been scored, but in that case he makes an instant decision and blows up without seeing how play develops.
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| It's good that Brown's speaking out, eventually something has to be done about these late shoulders/attacking the knee. He might get himself I trouble in the process, but he's speaking the truth.
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| Quote ="The Chief"The referee can allow advatage after an infringement and then go back to issue a car or on report if its serious enough. They couldn't disallow a try and go back to give a penalty, unless there was a reason why the try couldn't be allowed, such as a knock on putting the ball down. The only other permutation is where he blows his whilstle after the penalty and if he had allowed play on a try would have been scored, but in that case he makes an instant decision and blows up without seeing how play develops.'"
Tell me if I am misinterpreting what you have said
Ref can allow an advantage but if that advantage leads to a try then he can take no action against the offender except put it on report.
So if that is correct then the only 2 options the ref would have had when seeing that challenge.
Blow up immediately and the fact Saints went on to score meant the try would have been chalked off as play cannot continue after an infringement.
Let advantage happen, as we score a try in that advantage period, the only option he then has is to put the challenge on report, he cannot red card or yellow card the player or even give a penalty for it.
Now what would have suited Saints best is anyone's guess.
If the player had been sent off - Saints could live with that and lose the try
If the player was put on report and we just got a penalty - we would have thought we were hard done by.
Either way we lose our halfback and goal kicker
If all of the above is correct it makes it a bit open season for players to take out halfbacks and take their chance at the disciplinary.
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| Quote ="St. Etrigan"Tell me if I am misinterpreting what you have said
Ref can allow an advantage but if that advantage leads to a try then he can take no action against the offender except put it on report.
So if that is correct then the only 2 options the ref would have had when seeing that challenge.
Blow up immediately and the fact Saints went on to score meant the try would have been chalked off as play cannot continue after an infringement.
Let advantage happen, as we score a try in that advantage period, the only option he then has is to put the challenge on report, he cannot red card or yellow card the player or even give a penalty for it.
Now what would have suited Saints best is anyone's guess.
If the player had been sent off - Saints could live with that and lose the try
If the player was put on report and we just got a penalty - we would have thought we were hard done by.
Either way we lose our halfback and goal kicker
If all of the above is correct it makes it a bit open season for players to take out halfbacks and take their chance at the disciplinary.'"
You can give a card for foul play in the build up to a try, after the try has been scored.
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| Quote ="BackrowSaint"You can give a card for foul play in the build up to a try, after the try has been scored.'"
If that's the case then nothing more to discuss - I cant ever remember seeing this happen though.
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| Quote ="St pete"I think the big problem for refs is its tough to see at the speed they see and they have to make a call there and then. Most of these "late shoulder charges" are after the ball has gone. I think the RFL hasn't done the refs any favours with the shoulder charge rule and its hard for them to call.
The walker tackle against Wigan is a good example. Five of us watched it back at my house the following day. Three didnt think the was contact to the head and two thought the was. That was with about 10 replays plus the sky replays. The ref is expected to make that call there and then! '"
Agreed with that, it isn't easy for the ref, to remove a lot of the doubt make a late shoulder charge a sin bin offence minimum and an referral to the board to see if a furhter ban should be handed out if there is doubt about head contact.
Quote The disciplinary board isn't consistent enough with their bans. One week a player is banned for something and then the next a player has nothing to answer and that's a real problem and why coaches, players and fans get so irate with them.
Another example of not being consistent on the field. Yesterday Lms threw a cracking right hand and landed flush on the frogs nose. It wasn't self defence or protecting himself, he threw the first punch and ended up in the bin (correct IMO). Few weeks back, Wardle from hudds did exactly the same thing and got sent off. Danny maguire threw a punch and didnt get put in the bin.
Three players have threw the first punch. Wardle was sent off, Lms went in the bin and Danny maguire had a warning off the ref!
The RFL need to sort this out and fast!'"
That's an age old issue.
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| For me it was a yellow for being late. You could tell from the refs Mic he was asking the touchjudge if it was head or shoulder and neither knew. On report and yellow for me.
I think on report is more an indication to fans and players that the ref is questioning it. If there was only citing. Then fans may think the ref has blatantly ignored it. On report shows he's not sure.
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| Quote ="bewareshadows"For me it was a yellow for being late. You could tell from the refs Mic he was asking the touchjudge if it was head or shoulder and neither knew. '"
So why didn't he go to the video ref? All the games at Perpignan are televised.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"So why didn't he go to the video ref? All the games at Perpignan are televised.'"
I thought that when watching it.
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| go back 12 months to puletuas sending off same referee listening to advice from the video referee. Did he forget he was on tv
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| Quote ="Billinge_Lump"Agreed with that, it isn't easy for the ref, to remove a lot of the doubt make a late shoulder charge a sin bin offence minimum and an referral to the board to see if a further ban should be handed out if there is doubt about head contact.'"
Yep, that's something I suggested after last weeks incident.
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