I couldn't really be fussed answering that negative diatribe from Mugwump, but thanks to those that did.

Which is exactly what I've said....

If you must know, Saints originally offered TP a 1 year deal, Warrington then offered him a 2 year deal which made Saints raise the offer to 2 years. There has also been offers from other North West clubs.

He currently has not made his mind up due to off field problems back home in Australia. He has not yet re-signed, which is what the article says. BUT Warrington are not in the picture despite having made an offer. It is back to the NRL or stay at Saints.

For a start off, James Graham is a freak. He is not only extremely durable, but he has a passing game that has brought the role of ball playing prop back into fashion and is so good that it is a skill we will be unlikely to see in many other props, regardless of how many we actually produce. In addition, James Graham has been a real motivator on the pitch, something that any player could be, not necessarily a prop. So James Graham I think is unique in the combination of qualities he has to offer and no-one has produced anyone like him in this country for the whole time he has been playing. It could be said that props like him are a rare commodity down under too or else why has he been actively sought by NRL teams?

Aside from that, how do you know we haven't been producing quality props? I don't know what Frodsham is like, other than perpetually injured, but he could be quality when fit. Or Forster, also presently injured. Joe Greenwood has been given a shirt having played prop in the u20s game recently, so he could be a second rower moving forward. And we don't know who else is coming through the system, year by year.

As suggested, we have radically improved our youth development system over the last ten years. But that is very recent if we are talking about seeing the results. We are just beginning to see those results. We seem particularly good at producing second rowers and halfbacks but as stated in one of Saints' match programmes this season, the Saints' system encourages young players to play in numerous positions. Unless we follow the youth teams actively, which I don't, most of us won't have a clue what kind of talent is coming through. We will see it only when there are enough injuries in the first team for one of them to have a debut.

I was pretty impressed with Makinson, even though he is a Wiganer, but although I had heard of him prior to his debut, I had no idea what he was like. I thought Armstrong did ok standing in at fullback, yet he has only played at centre in the first team previously. I think it is testament to our production line now that we are able to call on such a variety of young players, most of whom appear to slip seemlessly into the first team when called upon. No doubt we will witness many more examples of our home grown talent in the seasons ahead as the system of the last ten years continues to bear fruit.

Sounds like Muggers is being visited by the Black Dog. Cheer up old chap. Your concerns are valid, but it's unlikely that all the negative possible outcomes will simultaneously come to pass. There may be some positives as well.

In twenty years our youth system has produced Cunningham, Roby and Graham. Three genuine world class, best at their position players. It's not Brisbane Broncos but it is significantly better than any other British club. The only other team that comes close is Bradford who brought through Fielden and Peacock but even then the former faded before his natural peak and was he really the best in the world at prop? Probably not. I would add that both the Tomkins brothers have potential to rise to the top too but it's too early to judge.

ps don't forget little cloughy, more and more a prop each year. Then there is emmitt who went to Cas and Johnson at Wakey.

There are 4 props how many do we want to produce each year?????

Before Wellens. We're looking at a ten year gap. Possibly more.



I'm sorry but this is pure historical revisionism. We are NOT "far better" than what we were. Indeed, there's an argument to say that our junior set-up was as good (some might even say BETTER) under Eric Hughes (think of the players that generation produced - not least of whom is Cunningham). And let's not forget that Hughes (and British RL as a whole) didn't have half the advantages our current coaches possess.

And since when did picking out traditionally weak positions as far as development is concerned count as loaded reasoning?

Jes I only asked if you were feeling down and tried to give some +ve's to cheer you a little.

Some people don't want to be happy.


In the end the league will tell, currently we are 5 GF's on the bounce and 3rd a 3rd of the way through the current season. We can't get to the top of the NRL because we don't play in it. If we did then we would have access to their cash and the selling Graham would be a mute point as he would not need to leave to play in the NRL.

Saints can only compete where we can, and in those circles we are doing nicely, thankyou very much. We are one of the top clubs, developing players and not all players will be world class, but not every NRL club produces world class players.

You seam to want to be depressed so I'll stop trying to cheer you up, but I disagree entirely with your premise.

Eric Huges was in charge from 1994 for just over 2 years, was he was promoted to the role directly from the Academy? Otherwise you cannot possibly claim Cunningham was a Hughes gem seeing as he'd have come from a previous Youth set up.

Extending Huges effects through to 1998 the kind of junior players that era brought through were Chris Morley, Joey Hayes, Richard Shiel, Andy Leatham, Danny Arnold, Paul Anderson (the centre), John McAtee, Brian Capewell, Tony Stewart, Jason Johnson, Lee Briers, Alan Cross, Scott Barrow.

There are a couple of decent players and others showed promise but it is hardly a who's who of Super League talent and trophies is it, let alone International and World Class? And Hughes wasn't restricted with a paltry salary cap, or pro rugby union and football, while dominant was far less celebrity instant millionaire that it is now.

Back to the present day the fact we could concievably field a decent starting 13 entirely based from academy products suggests we are doing fairly well at prodcuing SL talent

Wellens, Foster, Armstrong, Wheeler, Makinson, Gaskell, Lomax, Graham, Roby, Clough, Ashurst, Dixon, Magennis
Throw in a bench of last season departures doing ok in SL too: Jake Emmit, Paul Johnson, Chris Dean, Kyle Eastmond.

I accept it is not perfect and I know not all of the above will have long successful careers but it is clearly improving and the standard being produced is definitely better.

With such a great youth system, which follows that of such as Leeds and Wigan it is unfortunate that you felt that you had to come to London to take LMS a player brought through the London Youth system which is starting to develop.

As I say it is not perfect, I think having a winning squad entirely based from your own academy is going to be more fluke than anything else, some players come through and then don't kick on.

LMS is a credit to the youth RL in London, may many more come through. It is the best way to grow the sport from the ground up

Boohoo , why is it unfortunate? players move on for new challenges and to develop - Jammer is off to the NRL to develop and LMS has decided to do the same with Saints, he looked like he'd gone a bit stale down at quins anyway. Nothing unfortunate about it, it's life and it opens up a spot in the Quins team for someone else.

I don't think we follow anyone. We developed it all by ourselves.

As for LMS, you miss what he has done for rugby in London. I listened to an interview with him on Radio London shortly after he'd moved up here. The links to our earlier Londoner were made but also just how well the Quins are doing to be able to produce someone who is sought after by other clubs. Like Shenton at Cas and Jammer here at Saints, I think LMS had grown a bit stale in London and wanted to start afresh with a new challenge. As it is, whenever he plays he is promoting the London connection which can only be a good thing IMO.

Big club signs top performer from small club shocker!!

Almost never happens, that.

I can assure you I fully support LMS now at St Helens and I can see why he would want to make the move, but like James I still think with home developed players by a club that a fee should be paid and no waiting until the end of the contract. I am one of those who think in the case of LMS he will want to return to London one day and play!

I think you live in cloud cuckoo land. Sport is a business and why would any business pay for something they can legally get for free? Bosman changed sport get over it.

Typical response! you can only look rede and white shirt, it suits you, players under a certain age should not be able to transfer without a fee when he has been developed by that club, same with any player would you like to lose Jamie Foster for nothing. I think the difference is I may support Quins RL, but I always think "All for the Good of The Game" and not blinkered about soley about the club I follow and support! so it is my opinion! which is what forums are about and it is You that should Get Over it! have a nice weekend! lol

We've lost Kyle eastmond, James Graham, Jake emmitt and bryn Hargreaves for no transfer fee.

It's just how it goes mate.

Exactly , Jaybs is just deluded. Business is Business

Eric Hughes made his name coaching the reserve grades. And he was a pretty good coach at that level. But he was out of his depth higher up.



Hang on a second. You're looking at Hughes' junior set-up with the benefit of hindsight whilst we have no idea what the future holds for the current crop. Not a fair comparison. At the time when Hughes' prospects emerged we thought they would all go on to have the kinds of careers we think this batch will enjoy.

Take six players as examples - Lee Briers, Keiron Cunningham, Joey Hayes, Tony Stewart, Andy Leathem & Danny Arnold. We had EVERY reason to think all six would either become international players or very good club pros. Briers when he emerged performed a minor miracle in replacing the suspended Bobby Goulding and no one had any suspicion he would be transferred to Warrington (that said, Briers HAS been a good SL player - even with his "issues"icon_wink.gif. Keiron Cunningham at a very early age looked GB material and was capable of holding his own against established players in his teens. Joey Hayes & Danny Arnold both hit the first team with a bang. Arnold racked up a whopping total of tries in his first two seasons and Joey Hayes was an international winger and looked a certainty for years. Stewart seemed like a classy prospect on the wing and Leathem was the kind of prop we could bank on for a decade.

At THAT time there was no suggestion that Stewart (transferred), Hayes (career-ending injury), Leathem (career-ending injury), Arnold (attitude problems) & Briers would bomb out for us.

Just as we have no reason to think the current crop might self-destruct. But it can happen. Whilst we think this batch will go on to form a great new generation they might go the same way. And again, I have to stress that Hughes had NONE of the advantages Mike Rush & co have. Under McManus we have taken junior development far more seriously (we have no choice) whereas Hughes was operating on a shoe-string budget.

P.S. I forgot to add Prescott to the list.

I think saying Briers bombed out us a bit harsh. He came into the side with Gouldings suspension, helped us get to the CC final and the was dropped for the final in favour of a returning scrum half who helped us win the game (the correct decision btw).

Briers asked to leave after that and the club didn't stand in his way. Can't blame him really.

Correct, ask Andy Platt and Gary Connolly

Fishing trip tonight then, Rogues?

Don't forget, we got Ricky Bibey, albeit via Leigh.