I don't know how to highlight but the towing a caravan part made me laugh

surely not booed! That would be very sad if you had to go that low....he's given everything for you guys over the last 10/15(?) years!!

My thoughts exactly. I feel sick when I watch him, it's like watching a family member you love dearly making a fool of themselves, you feel terrible and just want to help them.

I personally think the best solution is the old Maurice Lindsey approach to players past their best. He'd put his hands on their shoulders one lunchtime and 'have a word' about their injuries. That player would then retire with his dignity intact.

How old is wellens?

32 on Monday.

Wello was all at sea again, just as he was at Hull KR. He wasn't our last line of defence. He seemed to forget where the line was at times.

I wonder whether it is a coincidence that we have leaked such huge scores against us since he has returned to the team?

Wellens is [ia[/i problem - not [ithe[/i problem. There were an awful lot of missed tackles in that second half and the overwhelming majority were not down to Wello.

A lot Younger Than Steve Menzies!!!!!

True, but if you watch his game last night, it was like we were playing with 12 men. The wingers panic whenever there is a kick as they know they have to do his job for him and it puts extra pressure onto them. Trying to come with attacking plays that can catch a defense out is also very hard to do when your fullback joins the line in the same position every time and does it so slowly they could send messages to each other down the defensive line by second class post.

Like the downfall of Tsarist Russia there were many previous problems before the war but no one took these into to account and the Tsar paid the ultimate price. Time to take a back seat Wello?

I thought on the whole he was pretty solid last night.

However it is becoming more and more obvious that his legs are betraying his RL brain.

I felt a number of times that in attack our movement out wide was stilted by the lack of pace when he chimes into the line.
A few years ago Wello was quick enough and strong enough to force multiple defenders to straighten up and commit to tackling him, otherwise they knew he would break through the gap. Now they know they can slide out and double team the threequarters while leaving Wello to be dealt with by a single defender.

In the games Lance played fullback, it was noticeable that although fans were saying he wasnt charging back into the onrushing defenders, he was making lots of return yardage. In addition he wasnt afraid to launch the attack from deep on the kick return, as is the norm in Australia. This is something you dont get with Wello who tends to take it up himself and settle for field position.

Defensively there was one oh sheeeet moment and that was when Catalan kicked deep past him. He was very lucky that the ball stood up and he recovered it. If it had bounced on, i think Les Cats would have either scored a try or forced us into retrieving the ball close to our try line.

Would he cope better in the forwards? Maybe at LF? On average forwards retire later than backs due to speed issues were forwards tend to keep power longer into their careers.

could one problem not be the solution to the other?

in all seriousness i think wellens could do a good job defending at centre for you. he needs less off the mark pace there and his tackling ability/defenisve understanding has never been in question.

I don't remember seeing him act as our last line of defence at any time though. He was missing in action for all the tries. On one occasion he left the line completely open instead of hanging back and doing what he used to do so well.

I have actively defended Wello on these boards and I certainly don't blame our defeat on him alone (or on any one player - it was a team effort to grab defeat from the jaws of victory in such spectacular fashion) but he made us worse, not better, in attack and defence and therefore should be dropped.

This reminds me of the days when another legendary Saints fullback (Phil Veivers) no longer had the pace to be a regular starter. Saints managed to extend his career by another twelve months employing him off the bench where he could cover any position on the pitch excluding prop.

It is obvious that Wellens can't continue at number one. But he certainly retains enough ability to be an emergency utility player. Given the number of injuries in the modern game I think such a role is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, this would mean Royce dropping his tactic of a non-playing 17th substitute.

Completely agree. He still has a role within the team, just not at full back. I'd personally drop Lance back so we can keep Gaskell/Lomax in the halves as I thought they played very well last night. Makinson and Gardner on the wings for now to give Foster some time in the 20's to try and get his game back on track.

I don't think we missed Meli at all either.

Imagine how Wellens feels.

About ten years ago he had pryce, long, scully, cunningham all playing with him to help. They all complimented each other and there was never any pressure and there was a tonne of trophies!

Now he's surrounding by moronic nancy boys and incompetent over the hill aussies. He is one of the only great players in the team. Yes he's getting older and hasn't got the same amount of skill but he's also got double or triple the pressure, as no one else will cover for him. Talk about kicking a man when he's down. And now all the 'fans' are blaming their loss of form on him. Spitting and kicking a man when he's down.

Talk about entitles fans. You don't have a great team this year (good but not great) you have no spine and the only player with the balls and sway to raise the team is currently burning himself in australia. Instead of blaming one man (who also happens to have been a great servant to your club and love you guys through and through) accept you are turning into a alte nineties wolves. Poor youbg players, over the hill aussies and, if you're lucky, a couple of really good players to get you through.

Are you saying that Lomax, Gaskell, Makinson and Wheeler are all poor players. Every single one of them is better than anything you have coming through at Warrington.

Lomax is good.

What's your opinion on Gaskell, Makinson and Wheeler?

For my money I think Makinson is one of the best.

Lomax - 1
Gaskell (Volldemort) -6
Lance -7
Back on the bench - Wellens...

I'd be happy with that too.

Makinson is a better fullback than winger and, if i'm not dropping a little bait and being overtly wire bias for irony, he is a good fullback (no where near great from what I have seen though). I would describe him as more Riley than Hodgeson. Better than Pat Richards but will never be a Greensheilds. But he is the best of the new crop of saints youngsters

I think I have said somewhere that Gaskell will NEVER be a half. I may be wrong on that one but he doesn't look mind blowing. We could put that down to him being a youngster but last year he was one of the weakest players i think I had seen in a while and I saw him a few times. Good kicking game and... that's about it. Also a light wind looks like it could knock him over.

Wheeler... well firstly I think I have a johnny from when i was 13 that is both more reliable and sturdier than him. He is a half playing in the centres and not doing an amazing job there. He isn't massive, so I don't know where these injuries are coming from. I think so far he has looked disinterested and, I would wager, will be one of the better centres in Wigan's super league history (considering the drought ATM he will become good and will appear to save them)

That was my fair and balanced assessment.

On the note you raised before (I assume as an angry retort) I think that Cooper, Evans and maybe Harrison (if we include him) are better than at least two of those and further on, as you say coming through, when they are integrated further in the team, GOB, Evans, Laithwaite and Dwyer will give them a run for their money and could quite easily trump them. I would speak to SEB on our board if you want a true reflection of the Wolves academy.

It really is an out of date notion that Wolves can't create youngsters.

No one takes pleasure in pointing out the fact that Wellens' age-related deficiencies are costing the team. So let's put that to bed right now. Regarding the team - to be honest I don't think there's an awful lot wrong with it.Many people are pointing fingers at the pack - but when I look at other SL teams (including the better ones) I don't see anything to be jealous of. LMS, Perry (when fit), Laffranchi, Clough and Puletua is as good a front row as I could hope for. Our backline is considerably more threatening in terms of speed and skill than two years ago.

Saints have the players to be successful. Unfortunately they are not functioning as a cohesive unit. Part of the problem can be attributed to lack of experience in the halves. I don't think Lomax is the future in terms of the scrum half position. But he can do the job for now. Gaskell still hasn't matured physically and there is a lot of pressure on him to be the team's thinker. Too much for my liking. If Hohaia was given some kind of assurance that he would be playing in the halves for the life of me I cannot understand why Simmons didn't start him. Considering that he hasn't played there consistently in the NRL he needs time to a) reacquaint himself with the position and b) learn how to integrate himself with our backs. He can't do that off the bench.

The single biggest issue is the lack of direction. Every top side has at least ONE player whose role it is to make sure the team retains focus. It's very easy for players to get delusions of grandeur and start flinging the ball about like Wally Lewis. When this happens you need someone like a Shaun Edwards or a Paul Sculthorpe to intervene and remind everyone of the primary goal - winning. I mean, sure - flashy rugby near your own goal line might lead to a try. But what are the odds? Ditto penalties. Clocking the opposing prop forward because he ran over your team mate might make you feel fantastic and get the crowd going - but if on the next set of six they score what's the point?

Last night I counted two, possibly three moments when a Saints player appeared to analyse the flow of the game, realise it wasn't productive and intervene to change it. In the past when we often had several leaders on the pitch at a time (Sculthorpe, Joynt, Martyn, Cunningham, Long, Graham, Lyon etc.) this was never a problem. Now it clearly is.

I think that is a fair assessment in all honesty. With regards to Gaskell, whilst he may not be a show stopper he has a very good all round game. He just needs a bit more bulk.

I had forgot about Harrison to be honest, looks a very good player and I was disappointed to see him injured, he could have pushed for an England spot. Cooper I think is a solid player but more of a grafter than anything else and Evans does look a good prospect but I wouldn't say any better than Makinson. Better than Foster though.

I haven't seen enough of O'Brien, Laithwaite and Dwyer to comment in all honesty.