Where have I said that?

Because I watched him play the games and and based upon what I saw I formed an opinion. And I managed to do that without the aid of a spreadsheet. Still if you have any statistics from those games he played on the wing that show he had an amazing game(s) despite what mine eyes saw then by all means produce them.

Leeds are well within those limits (they probably have room for one other overseas player) and the main threat to Donald's wing spot had an opportunity to stake a claim to being a better player than Donald during two loan spells at Hull. He failed to do so and is now at Salford. You, yourself, were critical that Leeds didn't secure an overseas player (or otherwise) to take the right centre spot ahead of Ashley Gibson who also finds himself at Salford. Maybe Delaney and Donald are simply far superior players at first team level and given some fans (you) were unsatisfied with Leeds 3rd consecutive championship from last season then surely the club should attain the best available players for the 1st team within the RFL limits, whether they be Australian or otherwise.

Its' a basis for nothing as I would consider, long term, both to be a loss of quality in the position.

Far better for him and for us than a few uninspiring games on the wing. Didn't do Scott Moore's development and St Helens career any harm spending time out on loan in similar circumstances

He's played in half Leeds 1st team games so far and Delaney was injured tonight so he may have featured in 75% of them by the end of the next round. I doubt Watkins will spend the "majority" of the season out of the 1st team. If he does, it will be because the coach considers he has better options for the 1st team and that Watkins isn't ready yet.

I will accept that.

How was that for quoting?

You watched two performances over two seasons and formed an opinion that Jones-Bishop was poor on the wing. Impressive work. Obviously I value your opinion and I'm interested to know in which respects he was poor as his stats from the Salford game in '09 stand up well in comparison to the usual right wing.



I was satisfied with another Championship and I described Leeds as having a satisfactory season, while feeling that Leeds underperformed in other competitions, a feeling apparently shared by coach McClennan as he stated in the build up to the opening game of the season at the Crusaders.



So why did you call for Kallum Watkins to be given a run at Donald's expense in '09 after the Huddersfield home game when you now claim that would be a loss over Donald in the long term?



I agree that once Leeds retained Donald it was better for Jones-Bishop to go out on loan in SL as he was unlikely to see much game time at Leeds with eight backs (and forward options as back cover) in front of him. I'd still have preferred it had Leeds said thank you and farewell to Donald and given the jersey to a British prospect (given also the increase in overseas trained in other areas of the team) and would have liked one of Broughton, Watkins or Jones-Bishop to have the opportunity in that position.



One for the statisticians to monitor as the season gets underway.

Unconfirmed reports have Delaney out for 4 weeks with a hamstring injury. Watkins should see plenty of action.

Imagine if we'd released Donald. We'd be really struggling for experience and quality in the outside backs and most on here would be slating the clubs administration for not having a strong enough squad like they did with last years' third consecutive championship winning squad.

Injuries happen and you have a squad in place to deal with them.

Had Donald not been re-signed (release wasn't the issue as he was out of contract anyway at the end of 2009) Leeds would perhaps have not seen the need to send Jones-Bishop out on loan to the Harlequins for 2010 and would have used he or Watkins on the right wing gaining valuable 1st grade experience with the Champions. The use of Watkins there would please at least one highly regarded poster who called for him to be given an extended run there in 2009.

Then should a three-quarter get injured (as has occurred now with Delaney) they would either both be in the side or perhaps Coady would be given an early opportunity or equally perhaps Ablett could be spared from the stronger forward group assembled for 2010 with Eastwood, Amor and Pitts available.

Leeds would have had the situation covered whether Donald was on the register for 2010 or not. I accept not with the same degree of experience but how experienced was Hall when promoted into the squad on the wing and he's faired pretty well.

Indeed. And thanks goodness we have players of Donalds'' quality within that squad.


I suspect BJB would have gone to Quins to play the season at FB regardless. It would certainly be a much better option. I am happy to see Watkins get a run in the centres, as I was last year, unlike some.

Coady was playing at Doncaster last year. We may have a diamond in the rough but I would hope our management would have better contingencies in place than such desperate gambles. PS< Ablett was injured last night as well. We'd really be down to the bare bones had we released/not retained DOnald right now and some posters would be berating the management for the squad nnot being strong enough.

The management obviously saw Halls' abilities and had confidence in him being able to handle the 1st team. Something they obviously didn't see in the lad now at Salford (something the Hull management also didn't see either). The lad you wanted to replace Donald.

We'll have to wait and see how that goes for him down there as I doubt he will be guaranteed his place week in, week out and may even find himself on the wing at some point. As long as there is a recall option it's not a big issue and leaves Leeds to play it either way. Watkins played like the excited teenager he was in 2009, that was my issue with him that he had a lot to learn and always stated that Leeds were doing the right thing by not overplaying him at this stage of his career. His first touch at the Crusaders in 2010 putting Leeds under unnecessary pressure was typical of a weakness in his game he displayed last season but he improved as that game went on.



Coady has been with Leeds since last September, played and went OK by all the accounts I've seen in Leeds' trial matches, playing at centre. He was offered as an option in an injury situation (as was Ablett), not as a first choice pick for 2010. That's what you have to do sometime when injuries strike going to second and perhaps even third choice options on occasions. Some may add Eastwood into the possibilities but I wouldn't be one of them. As it stands Watkins comes straight in and on we go but had Donald not been retained Leeds would still have had several options as injury cover.



Broughton was never given a 1st grade opportunity at Headingley (Peter Fox went on to earn International recognition from a similar starting point) but I liked what I saw of Broughton playing in a hapless Hull outfit in 2009. I would have liked to see one of Broughton/Watkins/Jones-Bishop given the right wing role this season, saving Leeds some contract money, reducing the overseas trained to six and help give gametime to another Academy product having lost another in Lee Smith to Union.

Another of my calls last season was that Hull's late signing of Epalahame Lauaki would be a positive move by that club after the disappointment over the loss of Michael Crocker and that Tom Briscoe was going to be a star. St Helens might testify to having the same feeling after tonight.

Tvoc are you referring to when Watkins had the ball pushed out in the 1st tackle???
The tackler clearly forces his hand through Watkins arm and pushes the ball backwards so how this can be seen as a "weakness" when the wrong call was made is strange imo.
I agree he's still raw but i think yer observation of his effort at wrexham is wrong.

great thread this............

TVOC dealing in stats and hard evidence (or semi at least).

Gareth seeking truth and justice despite there not needing to be any in the first place.

Rhinoms bumming anything Leeds.

nohing changes does it!!

Well waded in without reading/seeing anything that's gone on!!
Anymore alias' before you return to yer overpriced sand-dune???

Whose responsibility is ball security, the man in possession or the tacklers? Even if a tackler gets his hand on the ball (I agree this happened) does that excuse the ball carriers poor technique if he loses possession? Shouldn't the ball have been clutched to his chest as he hit it up rather than being left vulnerable tucked under his wing to his side?

Fair point well put,but in this case i think the ball is clearly pushed out in a 2 man tackle and it's happened to many seasoned pros and to identify it as a weakness in Watkins game is harsh imo and especially in this instance.

There's always two sides to these calls, such instances are open to interpretation and the referee (as in this instance) will often, correctly in my view, rule a loose carry. It's best to take the responsilbility for your own ball security, get your technique correct and not rely on a referee's call saving your blushes as often as not he won't.

Otherwise Watkins had a steady enough game as I commented last week and I'm only mentioning it now in relation to what I saw as a problem area for him last season. At this moment it's too early to tell if he's improved his concentration levels for 2010.

No player should be guaranteed a place in any team, except for Kevin Sinfield. I think BJB will retain the number 1 jersey for a while, especially after his display last Saturday. I expect he'll see more 1st team action down there than he would've here, even if Donald had not been retained. That is better for us and him.

Why do you think any of the excited teenagers you want to take Donalds' place would be any different to the excited teenage Watkins you didn't want played too much last year?

Why might that be? Do you think those that worked with him each and every day are in a better position to make a judgment of whether he sould've been used
Hull weren't that excited because as soon as their own wingers (wingers inferior to Donald) were fit he was out and they didn't make any great moves to get him this year. Why do you want to save Leeds contract money and a quota spot? What would they have done with that money and spot? Why not use it on a top class player for the first 17 like, say, Donald?
Well neither did much for Hulls trophy quest last year and I won't be getting carried away over their week 1 performance just as I won't be over ours.

Terrible post. Not a quote in sight.

Can you stop quoting Ramrod please. He's on my block list and I have no wish to read his guff.

What that coming over the hill is it a midget?

Dont know, I'm a good 6 feet away, I'll commit when he gets closer...................................

Watkins ball retention has been an issue in every game I have seen him play, if you don't think that you clearly haven't seen him play.

Don't get too comfortable, you'll have noted the Harlequins team for this afternoon then.



That might be because I judge each Academy prospect on their own merits and I hadn't seen the flaws in Broughton or Jones-Bishop's games that I had noted in Watkins appearances at centre early 2009. I expect young players to mature and they would all be a year older in 2010 which is where I was looking.



Yes I do believe that and often say so. They are in possession of all the relevant factors regarding a player's ability, temperament and suitability to the ethos of the club. Supporters have much, much less to make a judgement on.



Again there in the best position to make that judgement but looking in from the outside I noted that in 2009 they had Mark Calderwood, Gareth Raynor and Tom Briscoe on the register so wouldn't expect Broughton to make the seventeen when those three Internationally rated wingers were available.

Not forgetting that Broughton wasn't the only option Leeds had to replace Donald in the squad so it's not neccessary to focus too much attention on him.



Donald has pace and is a good finisher and benefits from playing with a Champion Super League club. I wouldn't rate him top class and when he leaves Leeds I think he will be comfortably replaced from within.



Briscoe spent most of the season sidelined with injury and Lauaki likewise only made it over for the back end of the season by which time Hull's season was long over.

I'm not getting carried away by one performance either as I'd already picked them to be a big success in SL when, let's be honest, most hadn't even heard of Lauaki and saw him as a desperate signing by Hull.

We were actually discussing a situation during the crusaders game which TVOC referred to as to highlight a perceived weakness in his game which in this instance i think was wrong and explained why.
As for seeing him play i have and like alot of new young players he has plenty of potential and plenty to improve on.
It's quite ironic that you say something with such conviction because your assessments of certain players last year were clearly made without seeing any of them play

You'll have noticed the score. Jones Bishop could've made all the difference.

Would you like to jinx any other players, first Richard Owen and now this.



Although some will get lucky in the short term, over the longer term there can be only one outcome.

Me and my big mouth!

If only I'd have sid something really flattering about Kirke. Kidding, I would never wish injury on any player.

I'd just like to apologise in advance to Mr Kirke for the season ending injury he is shortly to be struck down by..... chin up big fella at this difficult time.

For someone who is supposed to be living in the Middle East on a fat contract, one of the contributors to this thread sure as hell comes home a lot to use his Sky broadband.