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| Quote ="tvoc"In 2008 Leeds stayed within the original quota that the RFL set
In 2009 Leeds stayed within the original quota that the RFL set
In 2010 Leeds have exceeded the original quota the RFL set
'"
So why haven't they been sanctioned? Because they haven't exceeded it. You cannot rationally consider a quota and ignore exemptions written into that very same quota.
It would be like you complaining that Leeds players being given a the prize money from last Sunday meant that we had breached the salary cap despite the fact that the RFL regulations exclude such payments from the salary cap.
You're complaining about us breaching a rule that we haven't breached. We might have breached it had exemptions (for all clubs) not been put in place. But back here in reality they have been put in place so we haven't breached it.
Quote They are able to exceed the quota presumably because of the exemptions granted (again presumably) to Webb, Donald, Leuluai and Lauitiiti in 2008. '" Erm, if a player is exempt from the quota how on earth can that player count on the quota? Hence they have not exceeded the quota.
Quote Those exemptions came about after Gene challenged being placed on the non fed trained quota and won his argument with the RFL which led to the wholesale lifetime exemption of 'overseas trained' players that were contracted in SL in 2007'" Thanks for that. So, to recap there are players who are exempt from the quota, do not count on the quota and therefore Leeds have not exceeded the quota.
Quote I'm disappointed that the SL Champion club have more overseas trained than the new system was intended to allow in 2010 especially considering the allowance started at ten.'" Well perhaps you should consider the glass is half full and be proud of the number of club trained players Leeds have been producing for many years that have gone on to play for GB/England. Because that was what the new system was intended to make other clubs do. Follow our lead as it were.
Then again, how disappointed are you really? Bearing in mind you have already expressed the view before a ball was kicked (and repeated it again despite the WCC failure) that this is a greater squad than last years' squad (which had one less overseas trained player) that disappointed you en route to a record 3rd consecutive final. |
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No-one is saying that Leeds have done anything illegal with regards the quota.
The quota on overseas players was increased from 3 to 10 between 2007 and 2008. Was the RFL trying to triple the number of overseas players in SL, no they were trying to reduce the numbers. Gene successfully challenged his being designated 'non fed trained' and that led to the wholesale exemption of every non fed trained player in SL as of 2007. So a player such as Donald went from quota to non quota overnight, not by the RFL's design but by the RFL's incompetence. Was it the RFL's intention for this to happen? or another fiasco to add to the Wigan eight point deduction that never was.
I believe this to be the strongest squad Leeds have assembled for some time with the addition of quality in Delaney and Eastwood together with potential in Amor and Pitts (if the coach decides to use them.) I would still hold that opinion had Donald not been re-signed and one of Broughton/Watkins/Jones-Bishop been promoted from within in his place as I advocated last season. And had Leeds done that (Donald being the last of the non fed players to sign on for 2010) they would have also remained within the quotas as the RFL had intended them to be.
Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't always mean you have to or necessarily should. MP's erecting duck houses at the tax payers expense comes to mind here.
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| Quote ="tvoc"No-one is saying that Leeds have done anything illegal with regards the quota.
'"
So what are you saying?
Quote The quota on overseas players was increased from 3 to 10 between 2007 and 2008. Was the RFL trying to triple the number of overseas players in SL, no they were trying to reduce the numbers. Gene successfully challenged his being designated 'non fed trained' and that led to the wholesale exemption of every non fed trained player in SL as of 2007. So a player such as Donald went from quota to non quota overnight, not by the RFL's design but by the RFL's incompetence. Was it the RFL's intention for this to happen? or another fiasco to add to the Wigan eight point deduction that never was. '" So you want to criticise Leeds for not adhering to a rule the RFL wanted to bring in but would have been incompetent in doing so. yet you're unhappy Leeds have complied with the sensible rule that was eventually brought in? Rrrrrrrriiiiiiight. How dare leeds no abide by the incompetent rule the RFl sensibly abandoned.
Quote I believe this to be the strongest squad Leeds have assembled for some time with the addition of quality in Delaney and Eastwood together with potential in Amor and Pitts (if the coach decides to use them.)'" yet they couldn't regain the WCC, something you were very critical of last years' record breaking 3rd consecutive championship squad for not doing. Personally, i will wait and see what they actually achieve before I deem the greater than last years team.
Quote I would still hold that opinion had Donald not been re-signed and one of Broughton/Watkins/Jones-Bishop been promoted from within in his place as I advocated last season. '" Will you still hold that opinion if they win nothing and will you still be critical of the strength of the record setting squad from last year?
Quote And had Leeds done that (Donald being the last of the non fed players to sign on for 2010) they would have also remained within the quotas as the RFL had intended them to be.'" The incompetent quota that they rightly abandoned? Are there any other imaginary rules not in force you would like to see Leeds adhere to?
Quote Just because the rules allow you to do something doesn't always mean you have to or necessarily should. MP's erecting duck houses at the tax payers expense comes to mind here.'" I think my WCC prize money/salary cap analogy was more on point and note you haven't addressed it, or indeed, this Court case that made the RFl see sense. |
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The homo-erotic tension on this thread is almost unbearable.
Still not sure who is the giver and who is the taker.
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| Quote ="Puig-Aubert"The homo-erotic tension on this thread is almost unbearable.
Still not sure who is the giver and who is the taker.'"
I reckon they swap ends at half time. |
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Will you two please stop using such big words, it's fking with my head.
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| Quote ="Wheels"I reckon they swap ends at half time.'"
Wouldn't surprise me at all.
The image I'd got was of tvoc letting Gareth finger him whilst the former has a good suck on the latter's mamaries.
(Nothing to do with this thread - its just an image I like to think of.) |
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| Quote ="Puig-Aubert"The homo-erotic tension on this thread is almost unbearable.'"
I'm waiting for one of them too break into a song like West Side story |
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| Quote ="Wheels"I reckon they swap ends at half time.'"
It takes longer than 15mins to walk round G1
Sorry, sorry mate, couldnt resist. |
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| Quote ="Tony Soprano"I'm waiting for one of them too break into a song like West Side story'"
If that happens I want to witness it. I can then die a fulfilled man. |
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| Quote ="G1"So you want to criticise Leeds for not adhering to a rule the RFL wanted to bring in but would have been incompetent in doing so. yet you're unhappy Leeds have complied with the sensible rule that was eventually brought in? Rrrrrrrriiiiiiight. How dare leeds no abide by the incompetent rule the RFl sensibly abandoned.'"
I don't think it was sensible to have an increase in the quota from 3 to 10 and then exempt every overseas trained player in SL in 2007 but I don't think that was the RFL's (with the support of the SL clubs) intention either. That situation only came about when challenged by Gene and he won the argument.
Quote ="G1"yet they couldn't regain the WCC, something you were very critical of last years' record breaking 3rd consecutive championship squad for not doing. Personally, i will wait and see what they actually achieve before I deem the greater than last years team.'"
Do you think Leeds have assembled a stronger squad in 2010? That's all I've said.
Whether that produces a stronger team is a seperate matter altogether and like you I will await further evidence as to whether the pieces fit together.
Quote ="G1"Will you still hold that opinion if they win nothing and will you still be critical of the strength of the record setting squad from last year? '"
Of course. The squad is I believe stronger than the one assembled in 2009. That is irrespective of what this squad go on to achieve in 2010. Leeds are not an island and their chances of retaining trophies (or adding new ones) will be affected equally by many forces beyond their control. The improvement of other squads, the quality of coaching, hunger for success (which may well be greater), a referee's decision, a video referee's decision, a bounce of the ball, fate.
As a general point are you happy to see Leeds' reliance on oversees trained increasing? |
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| Quote ="Puig-Aubert"The homo-erotic tension on this thread is almost unbearable.
'" Think "Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Men in Love". |
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| Have you two been battling it out off board?
You have both gone missing at the same time for a long period.  |
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| Quote ="tvoc"I don't think it was sensible to have an increase in the quota from 3 to 10 and then exempt every overseas trained player in SL in 2007 but I don't think that was the RFL's (with the support of the SL clubs) intention either. '"
No, it was the RFLs stated intention to increase the amount of GB/England qualified players each club produced. the limits set (which haven't altered for that) are limits Leeds were and always have been exceeding. In fact, the RFLs intention was to force other clubs to do what we had been doing all along.
Unless you think the RFL are a bunch of BNP voting zealots who want to drive "bloody foreigners" out of our game?
Quote That situation only came about when challenged by Gene and he won the argument.'" Did it? Is this that mysterious Court Case you mentioned but won't expand upon?
Quote Do you think Leeds have assembled a stronger squad in 2010? That's all I've said.'" The only way to judge that is seasons end, based upon what they have achieved. That is what I have always maintained.
Quote Whether that produces a stronger team is a seperate matter altogether and like you I will await further evidence as to whether the pieces fit together. '" How do you define stronger? If, for example, Eastwood had "done a Mullins" and barely played and been garbage would you consider the squad stronger because a player like him has a better pedigree than a player like, say Worrall, regardless of what they actually do for us on the pitch?
Quote The squad is I believe stronger than the one assembled in 2009.'" In your opinion. Quote That is irrespective of what this squad go on to achieve in 2010. '" Ah, we're in that realm again where strength doesn't bear any correlation with what they actually physically achieve. Its' the same realm where Leeds get criticized for not adhering to rules that were never introduced. Has Gotcha stolen your login details?
Quote Leeds are not an island and their chances of retaining trophies (or adding new ones) will be affected equally by many forces beyond their control. The improvement of other squads, the quality of coaching, hunger for success (which may well be greater), a referee's decision, a video referee's decision, a bounce of the ball, fate. '" Quite, which is why, unlike you, I wasn't prepared to deem last season as a failure because of what manly and Saints did in one off games. Very little criticism from you of this season's "strong" squads' failure to reclaim the WCC still I note.
Quote As a general point are you happy to see Leeds' reliance on oversees trained increasing?'" Can't answer that when I don't accept the premise that Leeds have a reliance that is increasing.
I can say that as a general note I am pleased to see Leeds continuing to develop young British Talent like BJB< Watkins and Tom Bush and am pleased the RFLs new regulations are finally forcing other clubs to follow our lead. Its' something any self respecting leeds fanshould be proud of, especially one who would never tip against the club they profess to hold dear. |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Have you two been battling it out off board?
You have both gone missing at the same time for a long period.
'"
I'm back and even left a little snippet for you in my latest offering.
I do occasionally do some work you know. |
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It's like the Magic Roundabout this thread, only without the Magic.
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| Quote ="G1"Think "Ollie Reed and Alan Bates in Men in Love".'"
"Women in Love", surely but I understand the point you're making. |
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| Quote ="Old Feller""Women in Love", surely but I understand the point you're making.'"
Was a freudian slip |
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| Quote ="G1"I'm back and even left a little snippet for you in my latest offering.
I do occasionally do some work you know.'"
On a Friday? Who you trying to kid? |
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| Quote ="Wheels"On a Friday? Who you trying to kid?'"
Hey, some important high rollin Clients came in.
I had to make the coffees. |
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| Quote ="G1"Hey, some important high rollin Clients came in.
I had to make the coffees.'"
In the afternoon?
Lapsang Souchong surely with egg & cress or cucumber sandwiches with the crusts cut off.
What is the world coming to? |
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| Quote ="Old Feller"In the afternoon?
Lapsang Souchong surely with egg & cress or cucumber sandwiches with the crusts cut off.
What is the world coming to?'"
There's a recession on. We don't even offer choccy biccies any more.
MP's can't have duck houses on moats, civil servants are made redundant, bankers lose there bonuses and my clients' don't get chocolate hob nobs. Tough times. |
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| Quote ="G1"There's a recession on. We don't even offer choccy biccies any more.
MP's can't have duck houses on moats, civil servants are made redundant, bankers lose there bonuses and my clients' don't get chocolate hob nobs. Tough times.'"
Try living on a fixed income.
Tough times, you don't know you're born!
Mind you at least my pension was based on final salary & it's index-linked. |
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Quote ="G1"No, it was the RFLs stated intention to increase the amount of GB/England qualified players each club produced. the limits set (which haven't altered for that) are limits Leeds were and always have been exceeding. In fact, the RFLs intention was to force other clubs to do what we had been doing all along.'"
While the emphasis is on producing more homegrown players (and that number increases year on year 2008 to 2011) to accomodate that you have to either allow an increase in the size of the 1st grade squads or reduce the numbers of overseas trained.
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 330843.stm
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 354933.stm
Quote ="G1" Did it? Is this that mysterious Court Case you mentioned but won't expand upon?'"
Gene appealed against his classification as 'non fed trained' under the new quota system and won.
Quote ="G1"The only way to judge that is seasons end, based upon what they have achieved. That is what I have always maintained.'"
Then you would be comparing results rather than comparing the strength of the relative Leeds squads. Those results, as you accept, are also effected by several measures beyond Leeds' control.
Quote ="G1"How do you define stronger? If, for example, Eastwood had "done a Mullins" and barely played and been garbage would you consider the squad stronger because a player like him has a better pedigree than a player like, say Worrall, regardless of what they actually do for us on the pitch?'"
The 1st grade squad is basically 1 to 25. It is IMO stronger this season (on paper) than the squad available to coach McClennan last season. If you disagree you should get off the fence and say so.
Quote ="G1" Quite, which is why, unlike you, I wasn't prepared to deem last season as a failure because of what manly and Saints did in one off games. Very little criticism from you of this season's "strong" squads' failure to reclaim the WCC still I note.'"
Where did I deem last season as a failure? I said it was satisfactory.
Quote ="G1"Can't answer that when I don't accept the premise that Leeds have a reliance that is increasing.'"
Reliance was perhaps a poor choice but it's difficult to view a shift from five to seven (in actual numbers) as a reduction. Several years ago I can recall Gary Hetherington saying 'our target is to have a squad comprising 80% of players who have come through our system.' Given that clubs have to declare a 1st grade squad of 25 players to the RFL that equates to a 20 to 5 split homegrown to overseas trained. A goal he achieved in the years 2005 to 2009 inclusive but has now failed in 2010.
Quote ="G1"I can say that as a general note I am pleased to see Leeds continuing to develop young British Talent like BJB< Watkins and Tom Bush and am pleased the RFLs new regulations are finally forcing other clubs to follow our lead. Its' something any self respecting leeds fanshould be proud of, especially one who would never tip against the club they profess to hold dear.'"
I note that Leeds are considering playing a full-time plumber, part-time RL player tonight when they will be facing a full-time Leeds RL player. Having a better squad to call on still needs a deft touch. |
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Quote ="G1"No, it was the RFLs stated intention to increase the amount of GB/England qualified players each club produced. the limits set (which haven't altered for that) are limits Leeds were and always have been exceeding. In fact, the RFLs intention was to force other clubs to do what we had been doing all along.'"
While the emphasis is on producing more homegrown players (and that number increases year on year 2008 to 2011) to accomodate that you have to either allow an increase in the size of the 1st grade squads or reduce the numbers of overseas trained.
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 330843.stm
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 354933.stm
Quote ="G1" Did it? Is this that mysterious Court Case you mentioned but won't expand upon?'"
Gene appealed against his classification as 'non fed trained' under the new quota system and won.
Quote ="G1"The only way to judge that is seasons end, based upon what they have achieved. That is what I have always maintained.'"
Then you would be comparing results rather than comparing the strength of the relative Leeds squads. Those results, as you accept, are also effected by several measures beyond Leeds' control.
Quote ="G1"How do you define stronger? If, for example, Eastwood had "done a Mullins" and barely played and been garbage would you consider the squad stronger because a player like him has a better pedigree than a player like, say Worrall, regardless of what they actually do for us on the pitch?'"
The 1st grade squad is basically 1 to 25. It is IMO stronger this season (on paper) than the squad available to coach McClennan last season. If you disagree you should get off the fence and say so.
Quote ="G1" Quite, which is why, unlike you, I wasn't prepared to deem last season as a failure because of what manly and Saints did in one off games. Very little criticism from you of this season's "strong" squads' failure to reclaim the WCC still I note.'"
Where did I deem last season as a failure? I said it was satisfactory.
Quote ="G1"Can't answer that when I don't accept the premise that Leeds have a reliance that is increasing.'"
Reliance was perhaps a poor choice but it's difficult to view a shift from five to seven (in actual numbers) as a reduction. Several years ago I can recall Gary Hetherington saying 'our target is to have a squad comprising 80% of players who have come through our system.' Given that clubs have to declare a 1st grade squad of 25 players to the RFL that equates to a 20 to 5 split homegrown to overseas trained. A goal he achieved in the years 2005 to 2009 inclusive but has now failed in 2010.
Quote ="G1"I can say that as a general note I am pleased to see Leeds continuing to develop young British Talent like BJB< Watkins and Tom Bush and am pleased the RFLs new regulations are finally forcing other clubs to follow our lead. Its' something any self respecting leeds fanshould be proud of, especially one who would never tip against the club they profess to hold dear.'"
I note that Leeds are considering playing a full-time plumber, part-time RL player tonight when they will be facing a full-time Leeds RL player. Having a better squad to call on still needs a deft touch. | |
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TO BE FIXED |
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You should read the first report you've linked to. The reporter provides opinion but the direct quote from Nigel Wood emphasizes what the RFLs intention was - " There's been a long-standing objective to encourage the production of more British-qualified players".
He doesn't say it was there intention to reduce overseas players. A club could field a team with no players that it has produced itself and very few foreigners. This was all about getting clubs clubs to produce their own players. That was always the intention. Nigel Wood himself says it in the article you have linked to.
Quote Gene appealed against his classification as 'non fed trained' under the new quota system and won. '" Thanks. I'll ask, yet again, was this through the courts? Was this the court case that took the RFL by surprise that you mentioned but now seem reluctant to expand upon?
Quote Reliance was perhaps a poor choice but it's difficult to view a shift from five to seven (in actual numbers) as a reduction.'" Seven what? What do we have seven of? We don't have seven players who count on the quota. BTW, what if Scott DOnald or Ali Lauititi get England citizenship and declare themselves available to play for ENgland, like Maurie at Saints? What would your view be then. Are Saints exploiting this imaginary loophole with Naurie are you happy he doesn't count on a quota?
Quote Several years ago I can recall Gary Hetherington saying 'our target is to have a squad comprising 80% of players who have come through our system.' Given that clubs have to declare a 1st grade squad of 25 players to the RFL that equates to a 20 to 5 split homegrown to overseas trained. A goal he achieved in the years 2005 to 2009 inclusive but has now failed in 2010.'" Our clubs benevolence to the game as a whole is probably to blame. Look at this round of fixtures. Retaining DOnald has allowed Quins to field BJB and Salford to field Gibson and Broughton. Add to that the game Young Bush got and three teams will have fielded 5 young English threequarters thanks to our club. Not to mention the other Leeds produced players knocking about the league. Yet you think we should be criticised. If Leeds had released Donald and kept the players I mentioned how many of those 5 young English lads would have got a game last night?
Quote I note that Leeds are considering playing a full-time plumber, part-time RL player tonight when they will be facing a full-time Leeds RL player. Having a better squad to call on still needs a deft touch.'" icon_smile.gif
Yes that decision really bit us on the backside.  Hetherington really doesn't know what he's doing. Maybe if we'd had BJB on our left wing we've got 70 eh?
Aside from the point I make above about the number of English lads playing because of us I would also suggest that BJB will have gained greater experience from his game at full back last night than he would being a passenger on our left wing as Bush was. |
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You should read the first report you've linked to. The reporter provides opinion but the direct quote from Nigel Wood emphasizes what the RFLs intention was - " There's been a long-standing objective to encourage the production of more British-qualified players".
He doesn't say it was there intention to reduce overseas players. A club could field a team with no players that it has produced itself and very few foreigners. This was all about getting clubs clubs to produce their own players. That was always the intention. Nigel Wood himself says it in the article you have linked to.
Quote Gene appealed against his classification as 'non fed trained' under the new quota system and won. '" Thanks. I'll ask, yet again, was this through the courts? Was this the court case that took the RFL by surprise that you mentioned but now seem reluctant to expand upon?
Quote Reliance was perhaps a poor choice but it's difficult to view a shift from five to seven (in actual numbers) as a reduction.'" Seven what? What do we have seven of? We don't have seven players who count on the quota. BTW, what if Scott DOnald or Ali Lauititi get England citizenship and declare themselves available to play for ENgland, like Maurie at Saints? What would your view be then. Are Saints exploiting this imaginary loophole with Naurie are you happy he doesn't count on a quota?
Quote Several years ago I can recall Gary Hetherington saying 'our target is to have a squad comprising 80% of players who have come through our system.' Given that clubs have to declare a 1st grade squad of 25 players to the RFL that equates to a 20 to 5 split homegrown to overseas trained. A goal he achieved in the years 2005 to 2009 inclusive but has now failed in 2010.'" Our clubs benevolence to the game as a whole is probably to blame. Look at this round of fixtures. Retaining DOnald has allowed Quins to field BJB and Salford to field Gibson and Broughton. Add to that the game Young Bush got and three teams will have fielded 5 young English threequarters thanks to our club. Not to mention the other Leeds produced players knocking about the league. Yet you think we should be criticised. If Leeds had released Donald and kept the players I mentioned how many of those 5 young English lads would have got a game last night?
Quote I note that Leeds are considering playing a full-time plumber, part-time RL player tonight when they will be facing a full-time Leeds RL player. Having a better squad to call on still needs a deft touch.'" icon_smile.gif
Yes that decision really bit us on the backside. Hetherington really doesn't know what he's doing. Maybe if we'd had BJB on our left wing we've got 70 eh?
Aside from the point I make above about the number of English lads playing because of us I would also suggest that BJB will have gained greater experience from his game at full back last night than he would being a passenger on our left wing as Bush was. | |
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Hetherington really doesn't know what he's doing. Maybe if we'd had BJB on our left wing we've got 70 eh?
