Or did he step into a group of players with plenty of talent and a winning mentality installed by previous coaches? Something Smith certainly didn't inherit at Warrington.

I have not always been happy with smith or McDermott with chunks of performances. Have we been greater than the sum of our parts in winning or underperformed too often and lacked style.

What is fact is that smith with a mainly young side in 2004 won the hub cap with style and the grand final.

Powell MAY have done it but SMITH did.

After the 80s and early 90s cannot be denied with differing ways Graham Murray (R.i.p) and Smith brought something extra to the table.

Slight thread drift whoever had the Hetherington out banner?

Smith is without doubt the best coach Leeds has had in the SL era - I was no big fan of his but you cannot deny his ability and his impact at Leeds. He create a belief that didn't exist before he arrived.

You can say all you want about Warrington not winning a GF but they have come pretty close - save a cannonball of Ratchford they probably would have beaten Wigan - that is a testament to his skill. In the last two years they have got closer to winning the GF than Leeds!!

Less said about the two CC finals between Leeds and Warrington under Smith the better. Save some on here the embarrassment of trying to defend the indefensible. Completely out played, out skilled and most of all out coached.

Yet if we mention when Leeds have injuries you label it making excuses, priceless.



Let's give them a trophy for coming close then






How well did he fair against us in the 2011 playoffs, or the 2012 GF, or the 2014 CC semi? 3-1 to McDermott in knockout games against him.

You are very selective in what you quote what is Smith's record against Leeds in finals? What is Smith's record against Leeds in knock out games? We can all make the stats say what we want. More importantly what is his record this season i.e. the present?

I think some on here are forgetting that "Tony Smith is magic" as I recall, on account of the fact that "he wears a magic hat". How soon some forget

Why are people on here so obsessed with a coach who left us over 5 years ago?
We enjoyed his time with us, he left.
Get over it.
Get behind our current back room staff.

Says the guy conveniently ignoring the GF and last year's CC below





As for this year's record, as it stands it's meaningless. Something you've pointed out yourself on other threads. Leeds are top of the the league, we're both still in the cup with the play offs to come. Wire might not even make the top 4 at this rate. Leeds will.

So remind us how many trophies Smith has won? How many has McDermott won?

Leeds have beaten Smith in 3 knock out games during his time at Warrington and he has beaten Leeds in two - two finals to one.

More meaningful than historic data would you not agree!!

Time will tell whether Leeds make the top 4 far from nailed on especially with fixtures after the split.

Would you like a charity bet Warrington will not make the top 4 you seem very confident?

Perosnally I think the comparisons are redundant really.

The coaches who have come in have been the right man for the job at the time.

Smith turned the clubs mentatilty around, and turned them into winners.

McClennan kept them motivated to keep doing it and instilled a hunger to keep winning

McDermott has been able to manage the transition, along with a more competitive league, and still win trophies.

All are top coaches but in different ways

I make it Smith has won 8 trophies in 10 seasons at a top club. (0.8 trophies per season)
4 trophies in 4 seasons at Leeds (04-07)
1 League Leaders
2 Grand Final wins
1 World Club Challenge

4 trophies in 6 seasons at Warrington (09-14)
1 League Leaders
3 Challenge Cups

Brian McDermott has won 4 trophies in 4 seasons at a top club (1 trophy per season)
2 Grand Finals
1 Challenge Cup
1 World Club Challenge

Brian McClennan has won 4 trophies in 3 seasons (1.3 trophies per season)
2 Grand Finals
1 League Leaders
1 World Club Challenge


Now I happen to think Tony Smith is the best coach out of those 3 with McDermott in 2nd place, but just going off trophies is a bit too simplistic.

As The Eagle has said they all came in and did the job they needed to and did it very well in my opinion. In which case perhaps a lot of praise has to be directed toward the man who hired the right people for the right job?

Please see your posts following a couple of dodgy performances and subsequent backtracking following a couple of good performances on the McDermott out thread as I can't be bothered.



I'm not sure where you're getting that from, I said Wire *MIGHT NOT* make the top 4. As it stands they're 5th best team in the country, your earlier posts in this thread back that up don't they? Or are you going to backtrack and move the goal posts again?

I'll be very happy to take a charity bet on Leeds making the top 4 though, since that's the point i'm clearly very confident of happening.

What does this have to do with the question in the original post precious?

Calm reasoned sanity in a world of polarisation

And IMO spot on. I would add that the fact the TS hasn't so far replicated the trophy success with the Wire, highlights the fact that success comes from the combined efforts of Coach the Players in the squad and the back room staff.

I have consistently said the back end of the season after the split will determine where Leeds finish - Printer has chastised me plenty over this attitude. I have repeated that on this thread. It is likely that Leeds will finish top 4 but not the definite that you and some on here are suggesting. Who would have thought at this time last season that Leeds would finish 6th. The back end of this season will be much tougher than facing the likes of London and Bradford

I will take your charity bet what value do you want to risk?

But the first 23 rounds have a pretty big influence too, it's not like the points get reset for Super 8's and we're already 7 points clear of Uber coach Tony Smith's Warrington.
So, yes, i'll gladly take your bet. It is for charity after all.

Not sure on the amount. £50? More, less?

Nothing but somebody asked a different question which I answered. You didn't answer any question, you just stomped your feet like a 5 year old screaming "Tony is the best, stop picking on him!"

I've said before, did Smith make those players winners or did they make him a winner.

Never had GF success before one another. The likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow achieved it after him with different people. Smith hasn't achieved GF after those guys with different people.

Right man at a VERY right time. For as enjoyable as the 2004 season was, just look at the lineups and results and performances of the likes of Bradford, Wigan and Saints. They'd dropped off from the a few years previously. Bradford only slightly but weren't as strong as previous years. Wigan beginning the slide that would see them fighting relegation soon and Saints had their poorest SL campaign. As soon as Saints got ther act together they overtook Leeds. How would Leeds have coped if that same team and coach had been coming through in 2000/2001???

Well you keep changing the goalposts. Before the season started you couldn't see anyway Leeds could be top 4 and one of those who thought we'd struggle to keep top 8. Then matches against other top teams would be our downfall but we've picked up plenty from our rivals and for so long you've been waiting to judge Leeds' season on how the Magic weekend game goes.....as Leeds have played better you've stretched it to the final 7 games.

I "chastised" you because you do things like rush to come on here at halftime when we're playing HKR saying "looks like Leeds haven't bothered turning up" and generally kick them at every oppotunity and panic the season will unravel after 3 disappointing games......yet try so hard to defend Wire and Wigam saying that there's still plenty of time left and we should be patience and see how they possibly come good.

If Smith had little to do with it, what was the difference between the Rhinos in 2003 under Powell and 2004? The improvement cannot be simply attributable to the players being a year older, they fell woefully short against Bradford in the play offs. In truth, to answer the original post, that and the testimony of the players themselves, (see various interviews with McGuire, Sinfield et al), is the only real evidence you can go on.

As for Smith at Warrington, )although that was not really part of the original discussion), again you can only look at the improvement made from the time he joined. The playing roster changed admittedly but that club were rank underachievers and, whilst they may have not reached the pinnacle under him, they have been consistently pretty damn close. In fact, had we not beaten them in 2011, by a single point I might add, they would in all likelihood have been successful in the final.

Both Smith and McDermott are top coaches and it is impossible to say one "without doubt" one is better than the other as they coached at Leeds in different circumstances and will have had different challenges with injuries, form.and the ages of players. What is overlooked is that during Smith's time at Leeds when the culture was changed, with the addition of a much improved mental toughness, he had the help of his assistant coach by the name of Brian McDermott (who also assisted Smith in turning Huddersfield around)

What is also clear is that those posters in the 'Smith is best' corner are in the main some of the biggest critics of McDermott who have had to eat their words on several occassions and whose opinions should therefore be taken with a pinch of salt.

I prefer to get behind our current coach and players against all -comers.

And you were doing so well up to then.

It is perfectly possible to analyse the relative merits and abilities of both coaches without it being taken as a vote of no confidence in the other. IMO Smith changed the culture at Leeds from 2003 and was helped by having good players to call on and a distance from that playing group that Powell didn't have as a former team-mate.

McDermott has carried that work on, but it's impossible to regard some of his team selection and in-game use of substitutes for example as anything other than bizarre.

The logical extension of your last sentence is that McDermott is a better coach than Wayne Bennett. I don't think anyone would argue that to be true, no matter how much they like him.

It wasn't overlooked at all. In fact, many on here attributed the majority of Leeds' success during Smith's tenure almost entirely to BM, coincidentally, some of those same people are now some of his biggest critics.

My Central point was that we have been blessed with some very good coaches, arguing about who is or was the best is very subjective and seems to me, futile.

I couldn't agree more.
However, subjectivity & futile argument (discussion/debate), call it what you will, is the lifeblood of this forum.