Sutcliffe looks most capable of braking the line and most effective doing so out of everyone in the squad. I've said on other threads I can't see a 17 without him.

That may well prove to be case in the future, but not sure where you have come up with that in the past season.

It still doesn't justify why he would be ahead of Ward, who has shown much more in other areas of the game to justify his position. Of course, assuming that Ward does come back the same player before his injury.

As I said, I would like to see both in the side, but IMO Ward has done more to justify being ahead.

I think we will actually get a big season from Mcguire this year. Never looked to have fully got over his injury last year, a full preseason and we may see him come back well, similar to his injury in 2010 I think he came back better post injury than he was in the year or two before. I think it will be a mistake to write him off.

What i hope is happening is that Mcguire is drilling everything he has learnt not in to Sutcliffe, but in to Hardaker. If Mcguire can pass on some of his skills in backing up the play and support running, and drill in how important it is, and how he learned his passing game then there is no reason Hardaker couldnt go on to be one of the best FB's in the world.

But what a shame to lose, when he is gone in two years.

Seeing his natural ability to brake tackles and go through the line. That's where I've got it from. I'm with G on this, seen much more from Sutcliffe so far than Ward.

He was moving to Wigan this off-season apparently, didn’t seem to come about.

I think we should do the best we have, with the best we have. If we turn Hardaker in to the best FB in the world and lose him, we lose him, at least we will have had him.

I opted for Ward on the bench (instead of in place of Sutcliffe or JJB) taking into account the length of his absence. He hasn't yet played since last April and his pre-season last year was spent recovering from the GF shoulder injury. By the time the season kicks off he'll have only played 11 competitive games in 16 months for Leeds.

Considering how much people kick off on here when more senior players are brought back from injury, it's surprising no one has batted an eyelid about Ward possibly slotting straight back in.

If you want your 13 to carry the ball and defend in the middle, which seems to be the way of the modern game, then it's Ward over Sutcliffe every time in that role for me.

if you want an extra playmaker then Sutcliffe have the edge, but I'm not sure that's the way McDermott wants to go.

Didn't Sutfliffe play in the same academy side as Ward? Wasn't Ward the main playmaker of that side?

Look, I am not denigrating Ward. I'm excited for the day that he and Sutcliffe are in the team together.

But, IMO, Ward showed glimpses of looking like a first team player when in the team. Sutcliffe looked more than comfortable straight away and looked more 1st team ready. I also think he's shown himself to be more of a linebreaker than Ward.

Sutcliffe is not yet the finished article. As a half back he drifted out of games too often (to be expetced at his age). I actually think he looked very accomplished running lines where one might expect a centre to play.

I was just surprised, with Ward's lengthy injuries and Sutcliffe's form, that so many thought Ward should slot staright back in and found no place for Sutcliffe.

Still, finding room for them both is a decent problem to have, if McDemortt handles that prpoerly which is a whole different discussion.

Both players will be in the 17 as the season goes on IMO if they stay fit. Sutcliffe is the better playmaker IMO, and is more suited to playing at 6 or 13. I think Ward will end up in the back row and will make a terrific 2nd rower as he develops, the comparison to Greg Bird above is a good one I think, because that's how I see him too.

Is his frame built for that role?

I think he will eventually play 6.

Only issue I have is that up until his injury last season, his stats (and performances on the eye, stats to back it up) were matching that of Delaney. Delaney the same player that many were creaming at saying how good he was playing. It has already been mentioned by another poster the impact he had in the game at Catalans, which was the season before last. But you are using the word "glimpses" of looking a first team player?

As I said a couple of posts back, wasn't Ward the playmaker of the academy team before coming into first team, a team that Sutcliffe as part of? I think the comparison is unfair, as one is asked to do the dirty work highlighting other parts of his game, and not given the freedom to play a role showing his playmaking ability, where the other is given the oppossite role.

Assuming a fit again Ward, as you pointed out, he would certainly be much more important to our current squad IMO.

Not at the moment, but at 6'2 and 14 and half stone he will be.

Hardaker
Briscoe
Watkins
Moon
Hall
Sutcliffe/Sinfield
Burrow
JP
Aiton
Singleton
Ablett
Delaney
Sinfield/Sutcliffe

Bailey/Kylie
Jjb
Ward/Achurch
Mcguire

I quite like this one

Ward and Sutcliffe would be in my 17 week in week out if fit and I would have Ablett, Delaney in the second row with Achurch on the bench and no JJB, he has been a great servant but his tackling is awful, misses too many crucial tackles IMO, sad because he is still great going forward.

The 17 is looking very good but if you really can't resolve the Ward v Sutcliffe debate, we'd be happy to give one a home at Wakefield for a while.
Both great players. My preferance is Sutcliffe but probably only because I have seen him more recently.
McDermott is going to have a (good) problem keeping everyone happy.

He misses those crucial tackles beacause of the amount of work he is expected to do, not because he has gone backwards in that regard. Far too much is expected of him from carries and tackles, that his yards per carry are small, and the tackles he misses are often game breaking. It's not a new thing.

JJB shouldn't be out of the 17, the work load should be shared around, and he should be the impact sub, that way you get the benefit of the work rate, without the fatigue errors.

I'd also add that Aiton imho should start.
His defense is punishing and will ease the way for Burrow when he comes on for impact.
Aiton coming on would be good, as he has skills, but you will see a difference in the middle field defense when he is there.

1. Zak Hardaker
20. Tom Briscoe
3. Kallum Watkins
4. Joel Moon
5. Ryan Hall
13. Kevin Sinfield
26. Liam Sutcliffe
21. Brad Singleton
9. Paul Aiton
10. Jamie Peacock
15. Brett Delaney
12. Carl Ablett
14. Stevie Ward

7. Rob Burrow
8. Kylie Leuluai
11. Jamie Jones-Buchanan
16. Ryan Bailey

Gotcha - you'll be pleased/surprised/amazed (*delete as appropriate) to know that for once I agree with you!

Ward to me, looked a natural from the minute he stepped into the first team. In 2012 we arguably were in crisis at times and throughout that his form was excellent. It's hard to make direct comparisons as they were playing completely different roles - grafting second row compared to someone trying to be a creative halfback / loose forward. Ward obviously has more skill than we have seen so far however I can't see him playing in the halves as defensively he is an absolute machine who was integral in our run at the end of 2012. Sutcliffe looks like a half similar to someone like Fittler who will have a physical presence and be able to create things as well. By 2016 I would like to think they will start at 6 and 13 respectively. For now, the obvious transition is for Ward to play in the back row and gain more responsibility and Sutcliffe to develop his organisation learning alongside SInfield but necessarily in the spotlight of starting every week.

My 17 to begin the year would be:

Hardaker
Briscoe
Watkins
Moon
Hall
McGuire
Sinfield
Leuluai
Aiton
Peacock
JJB
Delaney
Ablett

Ward
Bailey
Singleton
Burrow

This leaves BJB, Sutcliffe, Clarkson, Kirke, Achurch who are all accomplished first team players in reserve. While I don't agree with Hetherington's ideas for the press about how strong we are compared to previous years, we are also not a million miles away***

***Providing Peacock, Delaney, JJB, Leuluai, McGuire are fully fit and ready to go round again. I'd certainly be looking to rest all of them at times throughout the season.

I don't think BJB has done anything to warrant de-selection from the team on last years performaces. I'd make Briscoe wait his turn.

I agree ref BJB ....

Hall
BjB
Watkins
Moon
Briscoe
Hardaker
McGuire

Delaney
That average ex Wakey hooker
Singleton
Ward
Sutcliffe
Sinfield

Burrow
Achurch
Ablett
Peacock

Get some pace into the second row

And take some acceleration out of fullback!

Proper position tinkering are you.