There have been a couple of well presented docs on TV scientifically refuting many of the more common 9/11 conspiracy theories including the pentagon plane strike. I think this was one of them: [urlhttp://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-conspiracies-fact-fiction/[/url

Way more.

Way more.

Look, I'm all for people doing their own research on this issue. But there's time spent positively and time ed into the sewer.

Highly complex and technical questions such as whether the debris field and damage spread are consistent with a missle strike or a commercial airliner, or whether tiny puffs of smoke ejected from the WTC indicate the presence of explosives or pancaking of the internal superstructure weakened by collision and burning aviation fuel are interesting but ultimately best left to the experts. I agree that there are some unanswered questions - but it's going to take something pretty special to cause me to doubt the forensic examinations, which, by and large, were one of the few parts of the investigation which were handled well.

Why people choose to get bogged down with this stuff baffles me because even simple events, viewed retrospectively through the testimonies of more than one witness, can, via a process of fractal-like recursive magnification, generate any number of weird and very often difficult to explain phenomena. Invariably you end up talking probabilities rather than truths.

The endless investigations into the assassination of John F. Kennedy highlights the folly of getting involved in technical debates such as these. For years there has been a running battle between those people who claim Oswald could and did pull the trigger for the fatal shot and those who say it came from the "Grassy Knoll". A couple of years ago the BBC made a big play of "scientific proofs" it had discovered which put the question beyond all doubt. Expensive, cutting edge CGI coalesced with dizzying ballistics, drag co-efficients and so forth to ultimately rule out a frontal shot (and thus any conspiracy). The final scene was of the host and his collection of boffins toasting the wonders of modern science. To the uninitiated this must have seemed all very convincing and I'm sure there are very many today who, on the strength of it, are happy to agree with the Warren Commission's findings.

Unfortunately, the programme (for reasons I'd love to know) forgot to mention the more than insignificant fact that the best part of a dozen doctors, surgeons, coroners etc. (many of whom were experts in the treatment of gunshot wounds - this is Texas after all) at Parkland Hospital were adamant that the tiny hole in Kennedy's forehead was unmistakably an entry wound. Moreover, they later expressed complete amazement when the Warren Commission's own autopsy photos (taken later after the body had been illegally moved to the privacy of Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington) appeared to show that entry and exit wounds had mysteriously exchanged places.

Returning to 9/11, for me there are far better avenues for investigation - many of which trace to the 9/11 Commission itself (something that Bush had literally to be bullied into), which at times seemed astonishingly unwilling to pursue the facts. Mind you, this isn't surprising when you consider that it was handled by the same cadre that gave Reagan and George H.W. Bush a free ride on the Iran-Contra scandal.

On the general question of conspiracy - my feelings are best summed up by the American political commentator and historian, Walter Karp (who knew a thing or two about power):

[i"When it can be established that a number of political acts work in concert to produce a certain result the presumption is strong that the actors were aiming at the result in question. When it can be shown, in addition, that the actors have an interest in producing these results the presumptions become a fair certainty. No conspiracy theory is required. On the other hand, those who make blanket condemnations of conspiracy theories base their own view on a far fetched theory indeed, namely that whatever those in high office actually do they are essentially men of good will. According to this school of special pleading, the "King can do no wrong" doctrine, suitably updated, it is entirely proper to praise an American President for skillfully engineering some desirable result. But to ascribe to him the same skillful engineering of an indefensible one is to fall victim to political paranoia and conspiratorial fetishm."[/i

On this day in history - 2003 - The capture of Saddam just outsie his home town of Tikrit which led to the ultimate, 'victors justice'.

Tariq Aziz is still being held under threat of execution.
An interesting piece on him from earlier this year.

[urlhttp://www.globalresearch.ca/iraq-tariq-aziz-they-killed-our-country-we-are-all-victims-of-britain-and-america/28619[/url

I was referring to 9/11 and 9/11 alone.

Today in history was also the start of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_MassacreNanking[/url massacre in China when up to 300,000 Chinese were murdered by Japanese soldiers.

Dec 13-2000.

Texas 7 maximum-security escapees.
A very dangerous bunch.



Saw the Werner Herzog interview with gang leader George Rivas (executed this year) on the C4 series [iDeath Row[/i earlier this year. A facinating story.

You pin the [uentire affair[/u on stupidity and incompetence?

Today in history - Dec 17th 1951.

The Civil Rights Congress delivers [i''We Charge Genocide''[/i to the United Nations.

[urlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Charge_Genocide[/url

The powers that be rely on them killing each other now, it's far more efficient.

I think that there was enough stupidity and incompetence on the part of the US government and security forces that I don't believe there is a need to try to pretend that the US actually blew up the Twin Towers, disappeared a plane or two worth of people and goodness knows what else.

I do not believe that there was a deliberate decision on the part of the US government (or parts of the US state) to let 9/11 happen. Although that it did happen suited certain agendas. That is not 'conspiracy'.

It helps that I know just one such nutter who posits such nuttery – along with exactly the same financial nuttery that a certain poster here posits.

For clarity, I do not consider the likes of the Project for a New American Century and the military-industrial complex etc to be 'conspiracies'.

If 'conspiracy' has been involved in events related to 9/11, then the issue of using WMD as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq might be it. But then again, perhaps they really did believe there were WMD. Or sort of hoped so.

I'm perfectly well aware of what constitutes a conspiracy and what does not - so let's drop the condescending and tedious pre-school nonsense. You say you don't believe any conspiracy took place. Is this "belief" based on evidence or faith? Why are you so certain? Have you read the 9/11 report. Have you read any - serious (i.e. not plane vanishing nonsense) - criticisms of that report?



I've no idea where you are going with this.



Good. Because if you did I'd say you are not as smart as I thought.



It [imight[/i be? You mean you spent 18 months bawling Wigan_Fan out over Iraq without being sure about your own accusation? I'd say you owe him an apology.



WTF?? I can't believe I am reading this. Has someone reprogrammed your mind? Are you even mintball?

Take your own advice Mugwump.

Your teeth'll rot ...

[url=http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smartnews/2012/12/rasputin-was-murdered-today-in-1916/?utm_source=twitter.com.COM&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=20121217&utm_content=rasputinwasmurderedtodayin1916Rasputin was murdered[/url.

You've done it now, just had to reach for BONEY M.



'Most people looked at him with terror and with fear
But to Moscow chicks he was such a lovely dear
RA RA RASPUTIN lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that really was gone'.

[url=http://www.cornwalls.co.uk/Mousehole/penlee_lifeboat.htmPenlee Lifeboat Disaster[/url 19 December 1981

Let's not forget the majority of these guys are unpaid volunteers and let's also be thankful that the RNLI have managed to stay afloat in spite of governments past & present.

Very brave people.
I have to say even now i find it appalling that many lifeboats are run by volunteers rather than it being a job people should be paid to do. Pretty much the bravest of the brave in civillian life.

The only full-time lifeboat crew are those at Spurn Point, all the rest are volunteers. There's no doubting the fact that all of them and those who may one day rely on them, like the current siutation. Most would probably resign if the RNLI became a part of government

Did you see the documentary late one night a couple of months ago on the Blyth volunteer lifeboat ?

As far as I could make out it wasn't even part of the RNLI but run by a group of volunteers from a local working mens club, bizarre but true and paid for by a local bloke who made a bit of money in property development, he owns the boat and the volunteers man it and raise money to maintain, house and fuel it - the coastguard are the ones who alert them to emergencies.

Its like we've turned the clock back 200 years.

There are 35 members of [url=http://www.i-lifeboat.org.uk/I-Lifeboat[/url, the UK Independent Lifeboat Association

On this day - 1988.

PAN AM FLIGHT 103.

Awful day.

Apparently the wreckage is still stored in Lincolnshire, they must be keeping it just in case further investigations are needed.

Mats Wilander
John Lydon
Kim Catrall
Four Tops

All booked or reserved booking on that flight.
Lucky people.