FFS

Sits back.

Smiles and shakes head.

Anyone remember forward passes, momentum and pillows?

Are they anything like b[ir[/iead cakes?

Jose, please read and digest the posts I have already made, and make some attempt to understand what I am saying.
I say that because you are making points that are already answered.


Oh, please.
I do accept that.
Not only do I accept that but it is the whole point .... if you read my earlier points you will see that is the main thrust of the argument.


Because it follows 11:59:59 pm.
Midnight is a tiny infinitessimal instant, it is the "B" in bang, the new day begins after it.
Then one second after that instant is 12:00:01am.


More dumb than to want to continue the series of 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm, 11pm with 12 [uam[/u?


Yes, and that is the reason why am and pm are not applicable to it.
Now we can either arbitrarily assign am and pm to the two boundary events of midnight and noon or we can see if there is any claim for either of them to be am or pm.

Noon cannot be said to be post or ante meridiem (on this I think we are agreed).
The fleeting instant of midnight [ucan[/u sensibly be said to be post meridiem (if only because, after an event, everything that follows, however small, is [uafter[/u it), it cannot be said to be [upart[/u of the ante-meridiem because, by definition, it isn't.

So, if you must insist on using am and pm to label these events (disappointing though it is for me to use am or pm for them), then midnight has to be the pm ... and because midnight is pm, then noon cannot be pm.


This is the point where I doubt you will ever grasp the issue.
That one second (as you put it, and which is way too long, it is an infinitely small instant, before which is pm and after which is am) must mark the [uboundary[/u between pm and am.
This is not like rugby league where you are in touch if you step on the edge of the line ... because here the line is so infinitely small it has no edges.


The best option is not to use am or pm for either of them ... but, if people will insist on using am and pm for those two instants, only midnight has any claim at all to actually being post meridiem.
Which leaves am as the label for 12 noon.


It is not "everyone else's acceptance".
I don't accept that the earth is flat either.

Straight back at you.

I've never given a moments thought about this before this thread. YOU are the one who started it with your mocking tone towards the person who gave you the appointment of 12pm.

I simply replied that 12pm was noon.

Then it started.



So why bother making the argument?



You are arguing midnight belongs to yesterday, a second after midnight belongs to today.



Yes, by a million more miles more dumb.

On a 24 hour clock it's 0000. You want that precise moment to belong to yesterday on the 12 hour system, the second afterwards to belong to today.



1200 (midnight) is the start of the new day. The start of the new day is obviously before the midday. That is why am makes perfect sense for midnight.




I don't insist. I've never even thought about it before this thread. You are the one who is arguing against what everyone else accepts.



I did a quick search. (I'm in a couple of rewards schemes and get paid to search so I often search a lot of things that aren't initially interesting enough to think about). One of the websites was an answer site. I clicked on it. Everyone said midnight was am. Some went into a bit of detail. Don't think that anyone argued otherwise.

I looked at wikipedia. There was a section on confusion between am and pm. I quoted it, but didn't attribute it.

Can you point me to someone else who insists midnight is 12pm please.

Do you think that midnight is 12pm?

Do you write midnight as 12pm?

There is probably an academic term to describe this illness.

Midnight - 12am or 12pm?

Quite ... and I stated that I was going to turn up when?
At noon, that's when.

And I correctly guessed who would start to argue a point that was unproveable.


In exactly the same terms as your argument that midnight is the start of the day, I could argue that that midnight is just as feasibly the end of the day and that it is therefore pm.
Neither would be correct.


I don't "want" that at all, that precise moment is the boundary with no duration and is not am or pm.
What I do want is for people who still use the 12 hour system to also use the correct terms noon and midnight.


Wrong, it is in neither day.


... and begins at the immediate instant [uafter[/u midnight.


No, there is no "perfect sense" for midnight being am (or pm, for that matter).


Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist.
Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions.

Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.

Quote ="El Barbudo"Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.'" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?

Quote ="El Barbudo"Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.'" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?

[url=http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/nhs-privatisation-compilation-of.htmlMPs and their links to private healthcare[/url

You know when I said "authoritative", what did you read that as?
Which part of "Confusion at noon and midnight" did you take as meaning "authoritatively am/pm"?
Have I not already made my position plain in my reference to "worthless poll of meaningless conventions"?

You stated (with no equivocation) that noon is 12pm.
That is incorrect, as I have clearly demonstrated.

It's embarrassing when those who criticise others for not owning up to being wrong then fail to own up themselves.

I'd say the New York Times is probably the most authoritative newspaper on earth. Even they employed Jayson Blair and published "his" work.

That wikipedia article fully explains confusion between 12 am and 12 pm. I didn't go to all that work and edit it myself. It was already there.

You want people to write 12 noon on appointment slips, rather than 12 am or pm. No one else thinks it's worth the effort to do that.

Your intial post was of a mocking tone of "The person instructed me to turn up at midnight, but I'm superior so I will ignore their mistake and turn up at noon when they meant."

This why sensible countries have adopted the 24 hour clock.

I do get the point that you were trolling me. I also completely missed the Oxo Tower joke that you made.

I thought the punchline (maybe by your sidekick?) was hilarious.

You probably made up the 12pm appointment in the same way you made up the Oxo Tower conversation. (Or you were telling the Oxo Tower joke but it was too subtle for anyone to get and it needed the other poster to point it out.)

But arguing for noon being 12 am is still BS. Whether you were trolling or not.

And the amount of people who say, "I was only trolling anyway" is probably about 500 times larger than the amount of people who were genuinely trolling to make a point.

How many 24 hour clocks have you seen?

I wasn't trolling, at least not at first, I was possibly guilty of low-key intellectual snobbery in my phrasing but as I was typing I thought to myself "I know who'll respond" then it became fun when you started lobbing-in "moronic" and becoming more vehement.
I didn't make a joke about the Oxo Tower, someone else cleverly tilted my true story to make (imho) a very witty riposte that also took me a couple of readings to understand, the joke was on me not by me.
The appointment is genuine, it's on Wednesday (i.e. midweek)


Saying that noon is 12pm (with no equivocation) is BS and you still haven't said you were wrong.
No matter.

Loads.
Arguably my favourite is the elegant (analogue ! ) Shepherd Galvano-magnetic clock on the wall of the Greenwich Observatory, but hey, what do they know about time-measurement eh?

Then there's the one in OldTownSquare in Prague, and the one on a tower through which trams run, in Berne.

For digital 24 hr displays, however, I'd point at most railway station passenger information boards.

So 3 is loads?

Compared to what, a billion household clocks and watches that still have the standard 12 hour clock.



And that's more to do with the timetables than the clocks.

It is moronic to argue in favour of 12am being noon.



The joke on you happened at the tube station when the guy asked you for directions to the Oxo Tower.



Before this thread, I'd have probably said that I didn't know or give a s**t.

Given 20 seconds to think about it, I'd have said noon being 12pm and and midnight 12am made the most common sense.

The argument on this thread is caused by you arguing that it actually makes more sense for noon to be 12am and midnight 12 pm, which is BS.

You are right that complete pedant tvvats will point out that neither noon or midnight should be given either am or pm. These are probably the same divs who complained because people were celebrating because the calender reached 2000 and we weren't actually celebrating a new millennium.

I am wrong for arguing this stupid with you. But you're wrong for arguing this stupid with me AND coming with up with BS argument that noon = 12am makes any sense.

Alright, peeps. Let's quit the thread drift - more of a landslide - and get back on topic, please.

Of course three is not loads, they were simply three very famous 24 hour clocks, one at what is arguably the world's most famous horologically-interesting location.


Eh?
You'll see digital 24 hour clocks on virtually every one of them, plus the digital displays on most platforms.

My alarm clock and, I would contend, most people's alarm clocks in the UK (maybe the world?) are either 24 hour or selectable between 12 and 24 hour.

~polite cough~