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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I wouldn't bother, he's done his usual runner. If and when he comes back it will be with some other meaningless waffling metaphysical bullshhit, the MO is to ignore points he finds too difficult, in the hope they'll go away.'"
I'm just interested in how mankind could create life (bacteria and viruses) when this is supposedly the sole province of God. Doubt I'll get any kind of sensible answer, mind.
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| Quote ="Little Robin Redhead"I personally don't believe in your or any other god. I also don't have a problem with anyone having a faith or a religious belief, each to their own.
Serious question, Where did all these diseases come from? Did God make/send them?
[uAlso, are there lots of different gods or do all the religions worship the same god under a different name?[/u Who's god was here first?'"
depends who you listen to LRR - according to the Witnesses the ONLY God is called Jehovah - there is no other God according to :
Isaiah 43:10-12
Common English Bible (CEB)
10 You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
my servant, whom I chose,
so that you would know and believe me
and understand that I am the one
Before me no god was formed;
after me there has been no other.
11 I, I am the Lord,
and there is no savior besides me.
12 I announced, I saved, I proclaimed,
not some stranger among you.
You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
and I am God.
Personally, I don't have a clue - I was a believer for nearly 50 years but became an agnostic - I, like most people respect anyones views but don't have to agree with them
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| Quote ="sanjunien"
Isaiah 43:10-12
Common English Bible (CEB)
10 ...
Before me no god was formed;
after me there has been no other.
..'"
That's interesting. When God appeared on the scene, there was definitely no existing God in residence. Must be right, cos he says so.
So, how did God get formed then? There was no pre-existing God to form him, and obviously, he couldn't form himself before he existed.
Secondly, if God created everything, how come there was a "before God", and who created that?
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| Quote ="sanjunien"
Personally, I don't have a clue - I was a believer for nearly 50 years but became an agnostic - I, like most people respect anyones views but don't have to agree with them'"
Wow, 50 years is a long time to believe in/follow something and then not. Must have been hard.
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| Quote ="Little Robin Redhead"Wow, 50 years is a long time to believe in/follow something and then not. Must have been hard.'"
well, after decades of praying and asking for help I suddenly had a string of circumstances where people stabbed me in the back and famlily illness and other bad things made me realise that there just cannot be a God by any name - I basically lost the faith because if a God did exist then he/it wouldn't put me and my family through the pain we are suffering - all pleas for help were ignored - many, including Kirkstaller will say that it's either a punishment for past sins or a 'test' of faith - I used to actually believe that but realise that this not actually the case.
I believe in the afterlife though but don't see how that has to be intrinsically linked to any deity or higher power
I respect anyones religious or non religious beliefs but I believe the bible is a fictional work which was compiled over the centuries to be a user manual to life, a historical storybook for people to read about life few thousand years ago and a work of propaganda and blackmail to get people to hand over their money and services to the church in exchange for eternal life
I think we will get eternal life (or go to hell) but don't see how any God needs to be involved in the process - Kirkstaller and the like will call me contradictory of course but that's what I feel.
anyone interested in learning about God & believing etc should read the Book of Romans written by Paul which is interesting and quite persuasive - it's quite thought provoking and easily the best bit of he bible for me for those looking to be converted
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| Tell you what, I'm in Birmingham tomorrow and Thursday night so I might dig out the Gideons bible from the bedside drawer in the hotel room and have a read of that.
On the other hand I've just downloaded "Marley and Me" onto the eReader so I might read that instead, and of course Thursday night is always Big Wok night in Brum...
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| Quote ="sanjunien"
I respect anyones religious or non religious beliefs but I believe the bible is a fictional work which was compiled over the centuries to be a user manual to life, a historical storybook for people to read about life few thousand years ago and a work of propaganda and blackmail to get people to hand over their money and services to the church in exchange for eternal life.'"
This kind of sums it up for me. The bible & other religous books are like everything, open to interpretation. It's these interpretations, (along with all the problems they cause) that I'm not keen on.
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| Quote ="Little Robin Redhead"This kind of sums it up for me. The bible & other religous books are like everything, open to interpretation. It's these interpretations, (along with all the problems they cause) that I'm not keen on.'"
One of my faves is that women can't be priests because Paul said so. Also all the apostles were men, so how can a woman be so exalted. HELLO< they were all Jews, so obviously all priests should be Jews.
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| We'll be seeing threads like these all the time, this is KS preaching. He doesn't care how much he gets mocked as long as he's spreading the word of 'god'.
He isn't open to debate, he's an homophobic , sexist, bigot who can't come to terms with death. He can believe in what he wants but he shouldn't be allowed to force his evil on others.
He's shown his hand on many occasion, he starts off nice saying he only wants to save us and then takes great delight in telling us were all going to hell.
Self righteous .
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| This topic has now turned into what is a good topic to discuss to just slagging off Kirkstaller the majority had their say in that massive thread from a few weeks ago, can we just ignore the moon pixy lover, he'll never change his mind even if the big bang and eternal nothingness slap him in the face.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"That's interesting. When God appeared on the scene, there was definitely no existing God in residence. Must be right, cos he says so.
So, how did God get formed then? There was no pre-existing God to form him, and obviously, he couldn't form himself before he existed.
Secondly, if God created everything, how come there was a "before God", and who created that?'"
Have you ever read Terry Pratchett's Discworld novel 'Small Gods'.
Explains it perfectly.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"That's interesting. When God appeared on the scene, there was definitely no existing God in residence. Must be right, cos he says so.
[uSo, how did God get formed then?[/u There was no pre-existing God to form him, and obviously, he couldn't form himself before he existed.
Secondly, if God created everything, how come there was a "before God", and who created that?'"
errhh yes, interesting question FA !
how was God created ? and when the world ends, will God 'end' ?
that's one to ask KS or the next Witness who comes knocking at your door...
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| I've asked him who created the creator before, he's got nothing, none of them have.
Pointless and futile, while science marches on these idiots want to drag us back to the dark ages where tyranny, hate and fear ruled.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"I've asked him who created the creator before, he's got nothing, none of them have.
Pointless and futile, while science marches on these idiots want to drag us back to the dark ages where tyranny, hate and fear ruled.'"
I don't know who created God, if he even had a creator that is.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken" of course Thursday night is always Big Wok night in Brum...'"
Try [url=http://www.miyakoteppanyaki.com/Myako Teppanyaki[/url mate, it's like cooking and eating in a circus
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Can you explain to me how biting into an apple equals "wanting to be god"? You fail to consider my question, which is what was so bad about eating an apple? It may have been against the rules, but WHAT IS SO BAD ABOUT IT?'"
It wasn't just any apple - it was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fall of Man is actually very much like Tony Nicklinson's case (apologies for bringing the thread back ON topic). Tony Nicklinson wants to play God as much as Adam and Eve did.
Quote You don't address the question at all of why all descendants should be condemned to death and to suffer diseases etc for something that was not their doing.'"
Because any of us in Adam's place would have done the same thing.
Quote Who created Satan? You also overlook that god [iknew[/i that if Satan was allowed to tempt his creations, they would succumb, yet you weirdly still blame them.'"
God did not create Satan.
Satan was originally a holy angel called Lucifer. Lucifer became arrogant and jealous and he decided that he wanted to be better than God. He was subsequently cast out of Heaven and he came to live in our world.
Quote In any meaningful sense. A reasonable analogy would be giving a kid in a garage full of petrol some matches and some lighters to play with, and telling it not to touch them, then blaming the kid for the explosion.'"
I don’t agree with that analogy, but in any case the kid is to blame.
Quote WTF is "the fall of mankind"?'"
The consequence of Adam’s sin.
Quote But at least you admit that in the fairy story, it was all planned by god. This makes it weird that you do not blame god when his plans come to fruition, but I understand that logic isn't your strong suit.'"
God is sovereign. Who are you, a mere human being, to question his plan?.
Quote If it was, why do you not think that god's infinitely disproportionate over-reaction to it is as utterly absurd as it sounds to us non-believers?'"
How can you say it is an overreaction? You underestimate the severity of sin.
Quote According to your tall tale, he wrote the script, he designed the model, he knew exactly what it would do, so he is 100% responsible. I'm surprised even you can't see that one.'"
He gave us free will.
He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage.
Quote That only counts for brainwashed believers. As god does not exist, there is no such thing to me as "his word". People who do not believe the fairy stories by definition aren't going to accept the fairy story as being evidence of itself, but the question would be why do believers so uncritically swallow every single thing however ludicrous, just because it is in some collection of old texts? Especially given some of the ramblings (Mintball is the expert on them) contained in the same works which even you would surely dismiss as lunatic?'"
I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?
Quote This is unacceptable. A new born baby cannot be a "sinner". What sin can it commit?'"
Inherited sin.
Quote Why just some babies, why not all of them?'"
All babies are sinful.
Quote Please try to use logic and reason if you try to answer. Throwing in more random quotes from your particular book is as useless as it is self-fulfilling. This stuff just the [iproposition[/i; it is not, and never can be, [ievidence[/i of its own "truth", for the reason I have set out.'"
I have yet to see any logic or reason from you, only tantrums at how unfair you think God is.
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| Yep clearly not brain washed.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"... He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage...'"
Since your god (according to your acript) not only knows everything that has happened but everything that will happen, this is errant nonsense.
Quote ="kirkstaller"I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?'"
The [iBible[/i is, in itself, no more or no less nonsense than the tales of the Greek/Roman gods or the Norse gods or any other gods or any other creation myths, such as Gilgamesh.
It is a collection of stories and poetry and proverbs and genealogy selected from an even greater amount of those things, and all bundled together, at a later date, into one book.
It is a work of literature and some of that literature is astounding. Some of the Psalms, for instance, are quite beautiful, while some of the stories would appall even the fans of slasher movies.
Anthropologically, it is interesting as a work illustrating how one tribe explained the world and organised itself in terms of laws, and how it saw its own history in its own tiny part of the world.
The "lunacy" is that some apparently educated people, in the 21st century, take it at face value, abandon any critical skills, any logic, and not only believe the worst of these stories, but defend them.
While one should always be wary of [ireductio ad Hitlerum[/i, these people, who believe in the absolute, literal truth of the [iBible[/i, and then defend it, are defending behaviour hardly unakin to that of despots and dictators.
The "lunacy" is entirely theirs.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"It wasn't just any apple - it was fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The Fall of Man is actually very much like Tony Nicklinson's case (apologies for bringing the thread back ON topic). Tony Nicklinson wants to play God as much as Adam and Eve did.
Because any of us in Adam's place would have done the same thing.
God did not create Satan.
Satan was originally a holy angel called Lucifer. Lucifer became arrogant and jealous and he decided that he wanted to be better than God. He was subsequently cast out of Heaven and he came to live in our world.
I don’t agree with that analogy, but in any case the kid is to blame.
The consequence of Adam’s sin.
God is sovereign. Who are you, a mere human being, to question his plan?.
How can you say it is an overreaction? You underestimate the severity of sin.
He gave us free will.
He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage.
I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige?
Inherited sin.
All babies are sinful.
I have yet to see any logic or reason from you, only tantrums at how unfair you think God is.'"
you are on a wind up mate.surely you dont believe that c**p you ve posted above!!!! you cant believe in all that, surely not. if you do believe that , you need to report your parents or whoever mentally abused and brainwashed you as a kid, to the authorities and then you need to go into therapy to become normal and realise what you were told to believe is in fact SH*T.
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| Quote ="Mintball"Since your god (according to your acript) not only knows everything that has happened but everything that will happen, this is errant nonsense.'"
No, not really.
Whilst God may know everything, including what will happen in the future, our choices remain our own. God just happens to know what we will choose. Knowledge of something =/= influence, and to pretend otherwise is to pervert the Biblical definition of predestination.
Quote The [iBible[/i is, in itself, no more or no less nonsense than the tales of the Greek/Roman gods or the Norse gods or any other gods or any other creation myths, such as Gilgamesh.'"
What evidence do you have for that, exactly?
Quote It is a collection of stories and poetry and proverbs and genealogy'"
Correct.
Quote selected from an even greater amount of those things'"
Oh dear.
Quote and all bundled together, at a later date, into one book.'"
Correct.
Quote It is a work of literature and some of that literature is astounding. Some of the Psalms, for instance, are quite beautiful, while some of the stories would appall even the fans of slasher movies.'"
I agree with you 100%.
Quote Anthropologically, it is interesting as a work illustrating how one tribe explained the world and organised itself in terms of laws, and how it saw its own history in its own tiny part of the world.'"
Again I agree, though that doesn’t lessen the historical accuracy of that particular worldview.
Quote The "lunacy" is that some apparently educated people, in the 21st century, take it at face value, abandon any critical skills, any logic, and not only believe the worst of these stories, but defend them.'"
I have examined the Bible critically and have come to a different conclusion to you.
Quote While one should always be wary of [ireductio ad Hitlerum[/i, these people, who believe in the absolute, literal truth of the [iBible[/i, and then defend it, are defending behaviour hardly unakin to that of despots and dictators.
The "lunacy" is entirely theirs.'"
God is sovereign over mankind.
You have posted in the past about your own false conversion and eventual backslide back into rebellion. I do not take lectures on morality from those who have abandoned the morality laid down by God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm anxious that this thread gets back on topic - if you have a genuine theological question, PM me.
Let's get back to talking about the issue of euthanasia and the right to die.
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| If i was a good charitable person, never said boo to a goose and loved my neighbour and was an all round good egg but didn't believe in god would i been as less of a person when i died as someone who raped killed stole and lied his whole life to repent on their death bed and accept god in to their life?
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"Because any of us in Adam's place would have done the same thing.'"
Not me, for a start. I don't like fruit. There, that just debunked your theory didn't it?
Quote ="kirkstaller"God did not create Satan.
'"
Who did? You admit you don't know who created your god, now you admit that perhaps his main competitor was not a creation of his either. I deduce that there must be another creator, one who pre-dates your god, and seemingly can do things your's can't. Isn't that a tad worrying for you? Especially as you have no clue who this super-god might be?
Quote ="kirkstaller"God is sovereign. Who are you, a mere human being, to question his plan?'"
God doesn't exist. If he did, I wouldn't "question" this sort of plan, I would declare it to be psychopathic madness.
Quote ="kirkstaller"He gave us free will.'"
Not according to you, not in any meaningful sense, you say he created us knowing 100% definitely what we would each of us do, therefore clearly each of our actions would be pre-ordained by our creator. If god knows what I am going to do next week, then self-evidently whatever I do can't be my fault, as I have no choice in the matter.
Quote ="kirkstaller"He created the set, the actors, the script – but he lets us decide what actually happens on stage.'"
You cannot escape the logic that as he knows what I am going to do, I have no choice. I cannot decide. Because if I decided differently, then your god would have been wrong, and we can't have that, can we?
Quote ="kirkstaller"You underestimate the severity of sin'"
Not me. Your god, OTOH, regularly seems to.
Quote ="kirkstaller"I wouldn’t say that any of the Bible is lunacy. Perhaps Mintball would care to oblige? '"
Whether she cares to or not, there is such a wealth of lunacy and contradiction that it is hard to know even where to start. OK,tell us, where do you stand on this:
=#FF0000"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12-14)"
Sounds fairly barking to me. Then again, what about forcing virgin rape victims to marry their rapists, who if caught have to pay a small fee to the victim's dad?
=#FF0000Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. "
What about God threatening to force disobedient people into having adulterous sex?
=#FF0000 "This is what the Lord says: "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight." (2 Sam. 12:11)"
Or maybe slaughtering thousands of children on a whim?
=#FF0000"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. (Exod. 12:29)
Oh, hang on. I presume that bit was ok since according to you,
Quote ="kirkstaller"All babies are sinful.'"
Quote ="kirkstaller"I have yet to see any logic or reason from you, only tantrums at how unfair you think God is.'"
A man who has actually gone into print with "All babies are sinful" challenges me on logic! You couldn't make it up!
But he does seem to be unfair to fig trees:
=#FF0000Matthew 21:19-20
19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.
As god, you'd have thought he'd know why fig trees don't have figs on them all the time, instead of getting so upset. What is this if not lunacy?
If you fail to see the dozens of pieces of logic it is because you are blind. As god certainly does not exist, it would be a stretch even on your part to ascribe to me a view that a non-existent entity is "unfair". What I am doing is explaining what a piece of work your god would have to be, if he existed as described in your books. The point is to convince you that he doesn't exist, and that even if he did, then he'd be someone to steer well clear of.
Quote ="kirkstaller"Tony Nicklinson wants to play God as much as Adam and Eve did.'"
Maybe he just wants to follow the example of Jesus, who voluntarily had himself killed?
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| Quote ="Horatio Yed"If i was a good charitable person, never said boo to a goose and loved my neighbour and was an all round good egg but didn't believe in god would i been as less of a person when i died as someone who raped killed stole and lied his whole life to repent on their death bed and accept god in to their life?'"
I’ll respond to your question, but if you have any more then please PM me
The scenario you have given is not a realistic one, particularly from the Christian perspective. You have labelled yourself ‘good’, but how is good defined, and who defines what is good?
Let me ask you a few questions:
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen anything?
Have you ever taken the Lord’s name in vain?
Have you ever looked at a woman with lust?
If so, in God’s eyes you are not a good person, you are a criminal. Criminals deserve punishment, and the punishment for guilty sinners is eternal separation from God in Hell. Since everyone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God, we are all destined for this punishment – yes, everyone - you, me, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden and even the Pope.
The good news is that there is a way we can avoid this terrible fate. Because God loves us so much, he provided us with a way to be reconciled with him and have our sins washed away. He did this by giving up the life of his only begotten son – Jesus – who took the punishment for us. In order to have our transgressions forgiven, all God asks for is an admission of guilt. He wants humility. We must understand that even if by human standards we judge ourselves to be good, we still break God’s commandments and fall short of his mark.
Anyone can receive God’s grace – it doesn’t matter if you’re a serial killer or a ‘good, charitable person’.
I hope this answers your question.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Not me, for a start. I don't like fruit. There, that just debunked your theory didn't it?'"
Damn, you got me there.
Quote Who did? You admit you don't know who created your god, now you admit that perhaps his main competitor was not a creation of his either. I deduce that there must be another creator, one who pre-dates your god, and seemingly can do things your's can't. Isn't that a tad worrying for you? Especially as you have no clue who this super-god might be?'"
God created angels before the creation of the universe. The Bible does not mention any other God.
Quote Not according to you, not in any meaningful sense, you say he created us knowing 100% definitely what we would each of us do, therefore clearly each of our actions would be pre-ordained by our creator. If god knows what I am going to do next week, then self-evidently whatever I do can't be my fault, as I have no choice in the matter.
You cannot escape the logic that as he knows what I am going to do, I have no choice. I cannot decide. Because if I decided differently, then your god would have been wrong, and we can't have that, can we?'"
Can you explain to me how God’s knowledge of our decisions has any influence on them?
Say I recorded a game of rugby league on Sky+. I then read about what happens in the game – the big decisions, the tries, the controversies. Then I go back and watch the game from the beginning. Are the decisions of the players influenced by my foreknowledge? Do they have any choice in whether they commit a high tackle or not? Of course they do.
Before you say that this example is different because the event has already happened, remember that God exists outside of time – he is in the past, present and future. Knowing what will happen or what has happened does not equate to influence.
Quote Whether she cares to or not, there is such a wealth of lunacy and contradiction that it is hard to know even where to start. OK,tell us, where do you stand on this:
=#FF0000"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." (1 Tim. 2:12-14)"'"
What do you mean where do I stand on this? It’s exactly what it says on the tin.
Quote Then again, what about forcing virgin rape victims to marry their rapists, who if caught have to pay a small fee to the victim's dad?
=#FF0000Deuteronomy 22:28-29 "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. "'"
You’re quoting Jewish ceremonial law. That is not God’s moral law, and even if it was, it does not convey any endorsement from God as to the morality of such a procedure.
Quote What about God threatening to force disobedient people into having adulterous sex?
=#FF0000 "This is what the Lord says: "Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight." (2 Sam. 12:11)"'"
God is threatening to do this to David because David has committed great evil.
Quote Or maybe slaughtering thousands of children on a whim?
=#FF0000"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. (Exod. 12:29)
Oh, hang on. I presume that bit was ok since according to you,
'"
That was a curse over Egypt for their wicked treatment of God’s people.
Quote But he does seem to be unfair to fig trees:
=#FF0000Matthew 21:19-20
19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.
As god, you'd have thought he'd know why fig trees don't have figs on them all the time, instead of getting so upset. What is this if not lunacy? '"
What has this got to do with anything? You should learn the lesson of the fig tree – God loves fruit bearing people.
Quote If you fail to see the dozens of pieces of logic it is because you are blind. As god certainly does not exist, it would be a stretch even on your part to ascribe to me a view that a non-existent entity is "unfair". What I am doing is explaining what a piece of work your god would have to be, if he existed as described in your books. The point is to convince you that he doesn't exist, and that even if he did, then he'd be someone to steer well clear of.'"
If you did accept God, as described in the Bible, how on earth is it logical to ‘steer well clear’ of him?
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| Because, like you, he's a barm pot.
Have you ever run for the council?
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