FWIW, I do believe that the ultimate resolution has to be a two-state one. But nothing I've seen from the state of Israel over some decades suggests that they are meaningfully remotely interested in that. And now we have the US saying that it will withdraw any aid from the Palestinians (which is miniscule by comparison with how much it props up the state of Israel), if the Palestinians dare to go to the UN and ask to be called a state.

Lobbing rockets at random into Israel is, in my opinion, a crass and counterproductive tactic.

But then again, I'm not imprisoned on a tiny bit of land, blockaded in, being subjected to regular raids and attacks, and haven't had my home stolen from me and then been expected to grovel to those who stole it.

And it frankly flabbergasts me that people don't realise this reality. The UK helps to arm the state of Israel. David Miliband made a decision, while in government, to continue that. William Hague says it's all only the fault of one side.

And that's just a snapshot of UK reaction: what can the Palestinians do?

In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were allowed asylum in European nations west of Germany/the Iron Curtain – certainly in relation to the numbers of non-Jewish refugees. The main tactic was to create a Jewish state so that those Jewish refugees would go there (indeed, as promised by the 1916 Balfour Declaration).

So there is an argument that, in fact, deciding to inflict an imperialist 'solution' onto the Middle East was actually a subtle continuation of anti-semitism – and was certainly inherently racist. But okay, we're too far down the line to change that.

So okay, where do we go from here? That's the crucial question.

But we cannot ignore the history and we have to challenge the perception of Israeli 'defence', which leads many people to end up siding with Goliath against David.

^

Wot he said.

No.

For the second time, have you?

I know people who have. I know people who have visited. I know people who have worked there.

[url=http://www.scriptonitedaily.org/2012/11/time-to-call-spade-spade.htmlA very good piece from one of them.[/url

You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder.

Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda.

What the flying f@ck are you talking about?

Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing.



Get with the times, boy. [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1522553/Hamas-U-turn-on-Israels-right-to-exist.htmlHamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006[/url.



Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for.

You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as.

Racist apologist.

You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation.

WHen Minty talks about "The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc." she is talking about the following types of activities:

[urlhttp://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poisoning-the-village-wells-1.137154[/url

[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-forces-gaza[/url

[urlhttp://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F3C5978B53AAD6C8852579E4004FECA7[/url

Here to help

Nice one, Soldiers in Blue.



I find it quite extraordinary that so many people don't seem to know that the very foundation of the state of Israel was based on what we would readily call 'terrorist' activities. And those terrorists were seriously calculating in their biological warfare, for instance – they were not simply lobbing rockets in anger.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a guy who'd worked on Fleet Street for years. He remembered how, one day, one of his colleagues burst into the office, almost hysterical, sweating etc, and screaming that he'd just seen a terrorist walking down the street.

When they calmed the bloke down and got to the bottom of it, this was a man who'd served in Palestine, as it was, (he'd been an officer, incidentally) and the man he'd seen, in London, was Moshe Dayan.

Just to reiterate: I personally believe that a two-state solution is the only way forward, ultimately. But the one-sided nature of the condemnation, and the lack of any comprehension of what the Palestinians are faced with, on a daily basis, gets right on my tits. And they're not small tits.

A distinction I've been very careful to draw throughout this thread.

Similarly the Israeli government does not represent all Israeli citizens.

If you say so, some may beg to differ.



Well actually it does doesn't it as the Israelis have elected their Government and many Israelis support their government's actions.

Okay - just to be clear...

At no point have I defended the actions of Israel. Quite the opposite. At no point have I condemned the [iPalestinians[/i for anything. My sole point has been that if we - quite correctly - condemn the Israeli government for targeting civilian populations then we cannot simply ignore or condone Hamas using the exact same tactics.

Apparently this somehow equates to support of Israel. I'm damned if I understand why, but there you go.

As for your question about apartheid South Africa, I'm afraid to say that at that time I was almost militantly ignorant of the facts. My recollection of my attitude at the time is of an incredibly shallow 'apartheid bad, Nelson Mandela good' naivety. Not something I'm proud of but I'm not about to pretend otherwise.

Feel free to provide supporting quotes. I haven't double-checked everything I've typed but I'm pretty sure I've used the word Hamas rather than Palestinians. I certainly did when making my initial point.

What's more likely is that some on here, possibly you included, see anything other than total agreement with their own view as automatically being the exact opposite view and therefore read stuff into posts that simply isn't there.


And Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, with the support of many Palestinians. How does this differ?

I know exactly what you mean apart from the boobs bit.

It is also pleasing to see that by page 20 of this thread some people appear to be seeing things slightly differently. That is not say that they were wrong in the first place just imho not even handed on the issue.

Both on [iThe Andrew Marr Show[/i this morning.
I can already hear the line the pair of them are going to trot out.

I agree, if someone were doing that, they would look ridiculous. As i havent seen anyone yet do that here, its just you looking ridiculous making excuses for murder.

You would think they would change their charter then wouldnt you. Maybe pull back on that blatantly anti-semitic language included within it, stop talking about the glory of killing Israelis. That statement would look a lot more realistic if Hamas foreign minister wasnt saying [i "I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)."

"This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar.[/i at the same time, and they werent holding an Israeli soldier hostage whilst saying it. But thats ok because its brave little palestine doing it, not of course, Big Bad Israel
Im not apoligising for anyone. This is why i dont know what you are talking about, you seem to be reading different words to the ones im writing.

I agree, thats why I've repeatedly reffered to Hamas, the reason it was 'Palestinian murder' is because Minty justifies the murder as acceptable because they are palestinian.

And? Is this supposed to justify the brave resistance warriors placing bombs on civilian buses and bravely running away? Or who these modern day homeric heros lobbing rockets at schools?

They could deliver their bombs by unmanned drones, Apache helicopter's, smart rockets systems, satellite or any of the following F-15E Strike Eagle, F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, IAI Seascan, Eurocopter Panther etc...then that way there would never be any civilian deaths. In fact they would be able to insist that they do not target civilians and any deaths are unfortunate COLLATERAL DAMAGE

No winners, only losers.

[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20466027[/url

Correct. Shame both sides were shouting about 'victory' in the aftermath of the ceasefire announcement. With attitudes like that there's little hope.

My point a few pages back, there is no hope when the crimes of the parents will paid for by the future generations of children, all the point scoring on here is just as pathetic, we as a nation are partly culpable just as others are

What this does show is you cannot control other nations and other groups of people , if they decide not to live together nobody will make them

Possibly time for the "Ian Hunter Solution"?

Read Hunter's 1973 "Diary of a Rock & Roll Star" and you'll see his proposed solution to "The Irish Problem". Basically he suggested taking all Northern Irish kids away from their parents for two generations and bringing them up in an environment free from deep-seated, institutional hatred, then releasing them back back into society.

So long as Saudi arabia exits then there will never be a solution. I was working in saudi in 2008 when the Gaza war erupted.. All the saudi technicians were sat around the Tv watching it, whooping and cheering as the rockets were being fired into Israel. The funniest thing was when this Pakistani engineer turned up started working in the section where I was. He was joining in as well watching the missiles being fired. It all changed when he mentioned to the saudis about them going to Gaza to fight with the palestinians. He never turned up again. The Saudis are taught in school the Jews don't have a home. The arab governments may say they support the palestinians, but it's in words only. They don't want anything to do with them.

Thank goodness we're continuing to help arm the bunch of bonkers Medievalists in Saudi, then.

You're doing a damned fine imitation of an Israeli apologist.

What you're doing is pretending that this is some sort of even struggle and that those naughty Muzzies are being naughty by lobbing rockets randomly.

Interestingly, you yet again ignore the question of just what you expect an imprisoned, bombed, shot at etc people to do.

Oh. That's right. Not lob a few rockets in frustration and anger. Just let themselves be bombed and persecuted and wait until these things stop. Because obviously the state of Israel fully intends to stop them and help create a two-state solution sometime, err, soon. Ish.

If by magic a two state solution happened tomorrow and Israel conceded to Palestinian demands, do you think Hamas would stop attacks on Israel. I personally doubt it would make one iota of difference, they would still attack regularly until their aim of total annihilation was achieved.