All the things I put in my list bar Mental, Physio and Occ Health are to do with hospitals, doctors and treatments. They are the totality of your patients notes and are called medical records they are just not all combined in one big file since they are generally held by the individual department. If you only included the general medical notes it would not provide a great deal of detail, certainly not enough for any kind of meaningful stay in hospital, the totality of the notes are often required, not to mention still have to be kept for legal reasons.

My initial response was that medical records in the UK cannot be easily transferred onto a digital/computerised format, you responded that my response was absolute bollox because they have some form of computerised summary in France. That is irrelevant since it appears to me, that the Carte Vitale is more a way of paying for/re-imbursing the patient the cost of their care with an electronic summary of care attached, not a complete medical record file, something which you admit yourself now in this post.

As for Xrays and scans, the same applies here, they are taken and produced within a few minutes and you can take the original home, however the hospital also keeps a copy.

If you go to your local hospital in the UK (and at my GP anyway, I dont know whether its standard for GPs or just some) they will have a summary of your care within that PCT on their computer system, but the often vital details of treatment, surgery etc are only available on the paper file.

Quote ="sanjunien"yes it's the Carte Vitale'" Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.

Quote ="sanjunien"yes it's the Carte Vitale'" Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.

Quote ="Big Graeme"Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.'" It would probably make a lot of sense to have some sort of card or some system that just contains a summary, especially one that contains a list of any allergies and what pills etc have been prescribed and other important information which could be useful if going to a different hospital. But, a card or system that contains detailed medical records is miles off in the UK, and I can't see how one can be currently in place anywhere at the moment without suffering from the problems of access and security. There would be massive concerns about patient confidentiality, because for a start in the UK a medical facility is not supposed to even admit that any kind of medical notes even exist for an individual.

Quote ="Big Graeme"Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.'" It would probably make a lot of sense to have some sort of card or some system that just contains a summary, especially one that contains a list of any allergies and what pills etc have been prescribed and other important information which could be useful if going to a different hospital. But, a card or system that contains detailed medical records is miles off in the UK, and I can't see how one can be currently in place anywhere at the moment without suffering from the problems of access and security. There would be massive concerns about patient confidentiality, because for a start in the UK a medical facility is not supposed to even admit that any kind of medical notes even exist for an individual.

Something similar was put forward by a rival bidder to Fujitsu Seimens, the card just had a summary of treatment and the place it was administered. It was also to replace paper prescriptions, hold details of your prescription status (free, season ticket paid for and so on) and a few other things.

Obviously, after all we've seen just how it works in education, especially with the [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/nov/14/academies-pay-200k-salariessenior managers of academies[/url

People get rewarded for performing well at their jobs? Shocking.

If they perform well at their jobs in the public education sector and get suitably rewarded, there are numerous and very vociferous complaints that "they earn more than the Prime Minister"

Oh, please point out just where in that link, there is an indication of any improvement in their performance.

I for one don't care how much public sector employees get - they should be incentives to reduce waste and if they achieve that they should get a share. If a head teacher significantly improves the performance of school i.e. improved levels in basic requirements, better attendances, improved teaching techniques etc they should be rewarded.

What I object to the funding of union officials by us i.e. employees in the public sector that are paid for out of the public purse but work full time for the union - perhaps if the union paid them we would have more funds for hospital cleaners etc.

Private companies 'pay' for most NHS cleaners. That's why their numbers were reduced - and that's a prime reason why MRSA etc increased: profit is more important than people.

And perhaps the NHS, say, could invest in loads more HR types to negotiate all those individual contracts for the million or so staff that largely have such things done by their union officials (and other issues dealt with).

Perhaps, while we're on the subject, the NHS could stop paying millions to consultants like KPMG, to work out how to save money and offshore the roles of people like medical secretaries.

Are you seriously suggesting that none of the above could be standardised and stored electronically - especially given that most will hand typed notes?

Who pays the private companies? the same people who pay the union reps - so that's a red herring. Cut out the union officials and you have more money to spend on private companies to clean your hospitals.

You honestly think unions negotiate individual contracts for all NHS employees - I can see the surgeons requiring a half wit union official to do their bidding. The NHS like most large employers will have a salary structure with the appropriate breaks depending on qualifications and experience - your idea that union officials negotiate individual salaries is laughable. Who are the union officials negotiating with? they can't agree all million individual salaries with themselves.

Do you think if you removed all the union officials you would have anarchy and everyone would down tools?

No he isn't and if you'd actually read and comprehended more of this thread, you wouldn't have needed to ask the question.

Cut the profit element out of the NHS and you'd have a damn sight more money available for patient care



You do seem to be especially struggling on the comprehension front this morning

As Codead said, no. Some can be, but what use is it if not combined with the rest? You would be spending large amounts of time and money transferring a tiny proportion of medical notes onto a computerised system. A lot of these notes are not used but need to be kept for legal reasons.

As I said earlier, it would probably make sense to have some kind of transferable , accessible summary. However there are still security and confidentiality issues with that.

Also since, for instance the LGI stores &files differently and uses different identifiers for a lot of these notes than say York District Hospital (because they are different PCT's and is even worse for places outside the same old SHA's) then it would still be very difficult and costly to do in a lot of cases.

Also, the vast majority of these notes are not typed they are written by the doctor/nurse/physio/technician/whoever.

Ah … losing the argument on NHS privatisation (the subject of this thread), raise the Tory MP/right wing press red herring of facility time …

If you want to discuss facility time (which, of course, occurs in both the public and private sectors), I suggest starting a separate thread.

Oh FFS!



You really imagine that, were facility time scrapped, things would run more smoothly – and private companies would suddenly decide to employ more cleaners? Really? You've actually just managed to completely damn your own arguments elsewhere about employing 'too many' staff when the employer believes they can get away with the smallest number possible.



No. That's the point.



From someone who so frequently fails to comprehend even basic posts, that's a tad ripe. And, of course, someone who never ever acknowledges the banana (skins) they've been caught slipping on.



... negotiated with the unions ...



Your continued inability to understand very simple points is a hoot.



~sigh~

I'll try to explain in the simplest terms possible.

A union represents lots of people. Clear so far?

It negotiates on their behalf with the employer on a range of issues, from pay, terms and conditions to disputes.

It is considerably cheaper and less wasteful of time and other resources to have such an arrangement – rather than an employer having to deal with each individual employee on an individual basis, on everything from pay, terms and conditions to grievances of any variety.

What? It happens in the 'real world' as well???!!!

That's all very well but totally unnecessary. In Sal's "real world", the employer tells the employees what to do and how much they'll get for doing it. They then go and do as he says. If they want more money or they want to work less, all they have to do is get promoted or they can always leave and go somewhere else

Simple enough innit?

I think we've got to the stage now where we can differentiate from "the real world" and "Sal's real world of unreality" where minimum-wage carers have expense accounts, only the public sector uses unions, the public sector is hugely overstaffed and overpaid (but can't provide significant examples), all British unions are terrible because of his experiences with a print union and 1 employer, and medical notes can be easily computerised despite knowing nothing about them.

Quote ="Big Graeme"Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.'" typical of the French Property info which has been a rip off since it's conception in it's various guises for a couple of decades providing false info,or at least 'incomplete' info to suit themselves and do their best to make properties in france over inflated by writing such drivel - I worked with this company indirectly for a few years so I do know a bit about about it - you can believe me or not... The Carte Vitale was introduced to speed up and make more efficient the overall running of the CPAM or Social Security system - it does contain all the info required to get reimbursed more quickly at the same time taking out of circulation over 900 million pieces of paper annually from the french SS system ! The card ALSO contains details of treatment received by hospitals,doctors,dentists plus prescriptions over the past twelve months - FACT any treatment or medical interventions before the twelve month period are stored on the doctors or whoevers computer in electronic files - paper files only exist in specialist cases such as my good lady with her cancer treatments over the past six years where the specialists notes are always in paper form with summaries typed up and stored electronically. The patient usually holds all the X-Rays & Scans etc though may hand them over to the specialist for safe keeping - a copy of the X-Rays etc is provided on a floppy disc in certain cases.

Quote ="Big Graeme"Then it doesn't contain anything more than a summary of treatment (an invoice in format) and the financial details to allow you to claim back the cost. www.french-property.com/guides/f ... ealth-card Hardly the super system you made it out to be, mind it is a start which is how the UK system should have been set up.'" typical of the French Property info which has been a rip off since it's conception in it's various guises for a couple of decades providing false info,or at least 'incomplete' info to suit themselves and do their best to make properties in france over inflated by writing such drivel - I worked with this company indirectly for a few years so I do know a bit about about it - you can believe me or not... The Carte Vitale was introduced to speed up and make more efficient the overall running of the CPAM or Social Security system - it does contain all the info required to get reimbursed more quickly at the same time taking out of circulation over 900 million pieces of paper annually from the french SS system ! The card ALSO contains details of treatment received by hospitals,doctors,dentists plus prescriptions over the past twelve months - FACT any treatment or medical interventions before the twelve month period are stored on the doctors or whoevers computer in electronic files - paper files only exist in specialist cases such as my good lady with her cancer treatments over the past six years where the specialists notes are always in paper form with summaries typed up and stored electronically. The patient usually holds all the X-Rays & Scans etc though may hand them over to the specialist for safe keeping - a copy of the X-Rays etc is provided on a floppy disc in certain cases.

I'm not sure what they stand to gain from misleading people on this hey.



I understood that any treatment notes were held in a database which the card was the key to.

French Property News plus other culpable organs have a living to make and have made a lot of money trying to sell people their 'dream' in france - it's good business,even in a recession because people still buy the magazines to read about their dreams that they hope will come true,not to mention the fortune they are making from desperate sellers of properties who will advertise with these magazines or online sites with the hope (however slim nowadays) of actually getting any one interested in buying - the magazines are always upbeat and suggest a turn around is just around the corner....it's a big con - after spending a lot of time in the house selling business in france I can say,it is a big con...some of their articles are informative but a lot of it is badly put together by people who actually beileve they know about french affairs

treatment notes up to twelve months old are kept on the card and and the card acts as a key for anything further back which may be on the doctors or whoevers' computer files
cards have to be regularly updated at posts which can be found at hospitals and chemists

Currently, general medical records are kept for a period of either 8 years after last treatment or 8 years after death. There are exceptions for such things like patients under the age of 18, maternity notes, blood transfusions and donor/transplant records (plus many more) which have to be kept a lot longer. When I left the NHS there were patient files that were current but dated back to the 60's, you can imagine the size of them. Never mind the extras that would go with them to make up the totality of a patients' notes.

If I ever murder someone please can someone remind me not to have Sal as the head of my defence as how anyone can miss so many blatantly clear points is beyond me!
He can work for the prosecution though as me getting away with it would be a breeze.

Don't be silly Minty.
I have been looking for work for 6 months just for a laugh.
I could have had a job at any time but thought not having one and the shortfall it causes was such a giggle.