England Squad:
Chris Bridge (Warrington), Shaun Briscoe (Hull KR), Sam Burgess (Bradford), Garreth Carvell (Warrington), Eorl Crabtree (Huddersfield), Kyle Eastmond (St Helens), Gareth Ellis (Wests Tigers), Peter Fox (Hull KR), James Graham (St Helens), Ryan Hall (Leeds), Danny McGuire (Leeds), Scott Moore (Huddersfield), Adrian Morley (Warrington), Richard Myler (Salford), Tom Briscoe (Hull FC), Jamie Peacock (Leeds, capt), James Roby (St Helens), Michael Shenton (Castleford), Kevin Sinfield (Leeds), Lee Smith (Leeds), Paul Sykes (Bradford), Sam Tomkins (Wigan), Ben Westwood (Warrington), Jon Wilkin (St Helens).

Positives:

Negatives:

The pack. Tomkins and Eastmond! Huge positives.

Compared to expectations: Crabtree, Eastmond, Shenton positives. Moore, McGuire, Smith (Lee and Tony) negatives. Everyone else, neutral.

fully agree

Agree with that, but would add Burgess as a positive.

I think we can take many positives out of this series. Before a ball was kicked we were all fearing the worst. But I think we can all be proud and pleased with the effort and improvement we have seen from England in te Four nations compared to the shambles in the World Cup. I said before hand that if we can look to be in a position where we are more competitive with Australia and New Zealand & be able to take positives out of the series to build for the World Cup then I would be thrilled and we have.

Ryan Hall and Michael Shenton have done fantastic for England's back line. I have been really pleased with these lads. So young and inexperienced at International level, they have faced the best & not looked out of place.

Sam Tomkins & Kyle Eastmond had never played an International game before this series and I thought they gave a really good account of themselves. With more experience in Super League & at international level, I think we will go alright in the World Cup with them two lads.

Kevin Sinfield has performed like he does for Leeds at International level which is excellent. I really did believe that he was over rated but I really have done a complete U-turn in my opinion of this guy. He has had an excellent series.

Also players like Eorl Crabtree and Peter Fox have proven they can do a job at international level. I thought Shaun Briscoe had an excellent game as well.

But the biggest plus for me was Sam Burgess. Absolutely outstanding is that lad, one of the best we have produced for years. A real shame that he wont be in Super League next year but from an England prospective, it is good that he will be playing at the highest domestic level next season.

Although we have still seen the same outcome, I think we can still be proud of the effort and improvement we have seen from England. I will now fully support the World Cup in 2013, if we can remain competitive like we have seen in the last few weeks.

England Squad:
Chris Bridge (Warrington), Shaun Briscoe (Hull KR), Sam Burgess (Bradford), Garreth Carvell (Warrington), Eorl Crabtree (Huddersfield), Kyle Eastmond (St Helens), Gareth Ellis (Wests Tigers), Peter Fox (Hull KR), James Graham (St Helens), Ryan Hall (Leeds), Danny McGuire (Leeds), Scott Moore (Huddersfield), Adrian Morley (Warrington), Richard Myler (Salford), Tom Briscoe (Hull FC), Jamie Peacock (Leeds, capt), James Roby (St Helens), Michael Shenton (Castleford), Kevin Sinfield (Leeds), Lee Smith (Leeds), Paul Sykes (Bradford), Sam Tomkins (Wigan), Ben Westwood (Warrington), Jon Wilkin (St Helens).

Positives:
Sam Burgess [i(Most complete Forward in the World?)[/i
Eorl Crabtree [i(Huge impact)[/i
Kyle Eastmond [i(Plenty of glimpses of undoubted potential)[/i
Gareth Ellis [i(Mr Reliable)[/i
Michael Shenton [i(Fantastic defensively)[/i
Kevin Sinfield [i(Showed his class and proved the doubters at this Level)[/i

Negatives:
Chris Bridge [i(Offered little and conceeded some silly indisciplined penalties)[/i
Shaun Briscoe [i(Just doesn't offer enough at this Level and looked nervy)[/i

Positives:

Kevin Sinfield (Leeds),

Second to Greg Iglis when it comes to the golden boot. I would of said Kev should be the golden boot winner but Gregs consistency and class tonight left that though out of my head. Its not my fault I don’t give a damn what goes on in the NRL.

Ben Westwood (Warrington),

Always tried his best and would have him in the Leeds team. Can’t ever remember stepping a foot wrong in this series. Ben is what the game is all about - not every single person in the team has to be a super star to play in a super star team. After all Leeds have Ryan Bailey..

Michael Shenton (Castleford),

A fantastic centre and can match up to any in the world. With the likes of him coming through at Castleford we may see them fighting for honours sooner rather than later if it wasn’t for Leeds Rhinos been in everyone’s way.

Richard Myler (Salford),

He’s far more talented than Sam Tomkins and should of played in the final. Only time will decided whose the best out of these two. Fantastic game against France.

Adrian Morley (Warrington),

The best prop this country has had in his generation. He’ll keep going till he hangs up his boots if this international series is anything to go by.

Shaun Briscoe (Hull KR)

His performance in the final (despite negative towards the end) deserve a place in the positive. I’d rather see either Richie Mather’s or Paul Wellens playing fullback in the next international series.

Sam Burgess (Bradford),

Sensational player that backs up my claims that England always have good home grown players no matter how many Australians we have playing in super league.

Kyle Eastmond (St Helens),

I never used to rate Kyle but he really is a class act and will be number one choice for England whilst he’s still playing. If St Helens was as close as Bradford I’d pop and see him play throughout the season.

Eorl Crabtree (Huddersfield)

Had a fantastic series apart from the final where he looked remotely average. Looking forward to seeing him play in the next international series however. Bet the Australians are looking forward to seeing him.

Gareth Ellis (Wests Tigers)

Has improved by a country mile in Australia and again is proof that England will always have class home grown players no matter how many Australians we have playing in super league.

Peter Fox (Hull KR)

I had a gut feeling that Leeds Rhinos lost a good player when we let Fox go wherever he went before Hull KR or did he go straight to? Either way he’s the best winger that we’ve had in this international series.

Negatives:

Chris Bridge (Warrington)

Has given too many penalties in my liking but looks like he can develop from here.

James Graham (St Helens),

The only way has been backwards for James Graham. He hasn’t impressed me this season not has he in this international series. He’s just good enough to play rugby league but nothing special. Far too hyped up by the sky team for my liking.

Ryan Hall (Leeds)

He’s not international class or he really didn’t show it for my liking. Looked very average at this level compared to his season with Leeds. Ade Gardner with Pace IMO.

Danny McGuire (Leeds)

Disappointing international series from Danny McGuire but he tried his best. Still one of the best in his position at club level in the world and has shown good for England before. He’ll only get better here on in.

Scott Moore (Huddersfield)

Don’t recall him doing much?

Tom Briscoe (Hull FC),

Looked way out of place against Australia but should be on the wing for years to come with England. If it was my choice I’d have Tom and Peter on the wings in a couple of years time.

Jamie Peacock (Leeds, capt),

Always goes forward but didn’t shine too much in this series. Just did enough to be in the team and keep us moving forward.

James Roby (St Helens),

I miss the old James Roby. Matt Diskin should have been in his place IMO.

Lee Smith (Leeds), Paul Sykes (Bradford), Jon Wilkin (St Helens).

Who?

Sam Tomkins (Wigan)

Wigan fans are going to go ape for me putting Sam Tomkins here. I’ll give him another year and he’ll just die down because he’s so overrated. Michael Maguire might have a say in that but Sam is so predictable unlike the other two half backs that have broken through into the England squad.

I could not disagree more. James Graham is one of the best prop forwards in Super league, if not the best. His work rate is excellent. He near enough played 80 minutes tonight, constantly taking the ball forward, constantly making plenty of metres up front and was never tiring in defence. He doesn't seem to give away silly penalties or knock on either which is a common feature with prop forwards. He has had a fantastic Four Nations IMO and a natural replacement for Adrian Morley in the World Cup. For Super League to improve, we need to produce more players to that level.



Ryan Hall was never going to produce the amount of tries he scores for Leeds at international level. This is because one of the strengths of Leeds Rhinos is their back line and ability to score fantastic tries out wide and subsequently Ryan Hall scores a lot of tries. But for England, this is not the case. Our strengths are in the middle of the park and not out wide. We simply do not produce a backline with the same natural talent and athletic ability as the Aussies do and subsequently we have never really had a backline that has shined at international level. But nevertheless Ryan Hall has not looked out of place. In defence he has been excellent. I don't ever recall him dropping a high kick or England conceding a try due to any errors made by him. He can finish tries when given the chance, but at this level he wont get that many very often. Even so, he still managed to pull of an excellent length of the field try at the beginning of the series. He has had a very good series, considering he has never played at this level before and it is only his first full year of Super League.

Oh and Ade Gardner does have pace, so I don't understand that point.



Is that not an oxymoron considering he is a forward? and the idea of a forward is to keep going forward?




Here you have offered nothing as to why he has had a poor tournament. Sam Tomkins is an unpredictable player unlike Danny McGuire. Why do you think he was such a marked man tonight? Because of his unpredictability. I think you should quit with the club bias and applaud players for the talents they are.

I rate him but I think he’s gone backwards and yes he does have the best work rate in super league but that’s only because he has no choice. He gave away a silly pass tonight as did a few players on our team. It’s a shame that the OP didn’t put average along with the limited positive and negative points we had to choose between. He’ll be in the international set up for years and I agree with it if that’s what the coaches picks but I’ll always have my own opinion.



You post a good point about Ryan Hall not been able to score tries that he does for the Rhinos. He scored possible one of the best ones of the tournament against France. However like Graham I’d put him as average. Nothing special just average after watching him have a fantastic season for Leeds.

Like Graham he’ll be one in the international set up for years.



I’ve been shown up here









Average tournament IMO. Danny McGuire is way better than Tomkins in my personal estimates. He’s just had a poor tournament. I’d like to see Sam build on from his potential like McGuire did but I still rate Myler better than Tomkins of which is probably the basis of why I put Tomkins in the negative section. At least Myler dragged us from embarrassment against the French. Tomkins has just been a part of the team and looked remotely average apart from the odd kick that’s been put in.

If either Tomkins or Eastmond started against France I don't think we'd have been in an embarrassing position in the first place!

Its all if and buts rather than dealing with Reality. When Tomkins and Eastmond start doing the stuff that Danny McGuire does I’ll highly rate Tomkins. Eastmond is in a league of own and only time will tell whenever he’ll go on to be better than Danny McGuire.

Positives-

Fox- Thought he took his chance really well in these past 2 games and is an excellent finisher

Shenton- I was a little worried about him in defence coming into the tournament............made me look a mug with a superb defensive tournament. I'm happy for him.

Tomkins- Didn't have the best of times tonight but showed enough throughout that he's a top player. His sheer determination and will to win is great. His defensive work has lifted the side at times.

Eastmond- Superb stuff. The lad is a big game player and he's just electric. I'm not sure he's going to play his full career at 7 but he's that good he can play anywhere. Looks like he's staying in League.........thank god.

Graham- The guy is a workaholic and just keeps driving you forward. He could do with picking when to pass and when to go abit more wisely at times though.

Sinfield- Again like Tomkins didn't have the best of times tonight with his kicking and passing being abit off but he's had a couple of big preformences against the 2 best teams in the world and proved a point at this level. He should be seen as a hooker only at this level.

Burgess- Got better as the tournament went on. The lad is one hell of a player. He cut out the early tournament handling errors and went from strengh to strengh. He can do everything and has the potential to be the best forward in the world(he's not far off now).

Ellis- The guy is captain in waiting for when Peacock hangs the boots up. He's just Mr realiable and gets the job done. He must be the worlds best second rower at the moment.

Crabtree- He offered something different at this level and caused plenty of problems. He should be around the national side for a number of years.

Westwood- I've been impressed with him. He's big and tough and has played very well. His game has come on hugely over the past couple of years.

Negatives-

Fullback position. I'm not slating Briscoe because he deserved the shirt and did a solid enough job but we need some pace at the back. It's such an important position in the modern game.

Centres- Shenton had a huge tournament in defence but saw little ball in attack. He can be proud of his efforts but we need to get our centres more ball and quality ball. I'd have liked to have seen Atkins in this tournament because he's a big strong lad and would physically have caused the Aussies problems.

Passing- Alot of the time it's not accurate enough. It's a basic skill but we seem to struggle to get the ball accuratly from one man to the next. The halfs didn't see much 'quality' ball from dummy half.

Kicking game- It's just abit hit and hope at times for me. The Aussies tend to drop their fullback really deep so it's hard to find the ground but that then means theres quite abit of space in behind for chips over the top. When we tried them we came up with the ball more often then not but we've not done it enough. The kicking in general needs to be better thought out.

Danny Maguire got his chance in this tournament and was terrible. How you can conclude this is frankly a joke. And no, that's not decrying Danny Maguire in any way, but to suggest he was the better option based on performances throughout this tournament is in no way based in reality.

And yet he can still do it so effectively. Wigan have been struggling in the forwards all year (like Saints) and no-one has stepped up the mark anything like what Graham has.

If you apply the logic 'he has no choice' then how do you explain his work rate tonight? He played nearly the full 80 minutes, constantly taking the ball forward, making plenty of yards and was solid in defence throughout. He didn't have to be though with, Adrian Morley, Jamie Peacock, Eorl Crabtree etc



Again you contradict yourself, you say that he has scored one of the best tries of the tournament and yet you call him average. As well as saying he is nothing special yet you say he has had a fantastic season for Leeds.



If McGuire is way better than Tomkins why didn't he show it in this tournament? Why did Tomkins win the 'best stand off in the league' title and not him? You have applied the same logic to Kevin Sinfield in a previous thread.

Richie Myler didn't drag us from embarrassment against the French. Neat work from Kevin Sinfield and Sam Burgess did. I thought Richie Myler was very average that game against the weakest side in the competition. At least Tomkins and Eastmond have imposed themselves on every game they have played. It must speak volumes that his club coach wont pick Myler over Tomkins and Eastmond. Not to mention Richie Myler is awful in defence. Against Inglis and Hayne he would have been torn apart. At least Sam Tomkins and Kyle Eastmond can both defend. I still rate Richie Myler and I think he will only improve under Tony Smith but I think Tomkins and Eastmond have proven to be more ready at international level than Myler.

For me the only current contender seems to be Richard Owen, But just watch Ben Jones-Bishop go at Harlequins next season there could lie Englands 2013 Full-Back...

Owen would probably be my choice too but I'd like to think Tansey can kick on next year for Hull. He showed some good things at the back end of the season and it seemed to me that he has picked up a few things whilst down under.

Another one getting rave reviews at Hull is Tom Briscoe's younger brother Jack. He has got a full time contract this year and could be one for the future. He's very quick if nothing else.

Positives:

Gareth Ellis - Player of the tournement for England IMO. His strong tackles rattled the Kiwi's especially, and he seemed reliable in every game.

Young Halves - All three of the half backs impressed, Tony Smith was being slated for dropping the likes of Burrow and Pryce at the start of the tournament, but all 3 of them impressed in the games they played.

Peter Fox - In the 2 games that he played he impressed. Scoring 3 tries against tough opposition was a great achievement after missing out on the first 2 games.

James Graham - A great tournament rom him, he always made yards with ball in hand and put in some strong tackles to rattle to opposition.

Sam Burgess - Like Graham, he made metres in every tackle and put in some big hits. Scoring 2 in the final was also impressive, and the step to get past Slater was great




Negatives:

Shaun Briscoe - I thought that his inclusion would be a great idea, yet he failed to really impress a lot. Most of the time he was reliable at the back yet I feel that he needed to get more involved in the attack.

Danny McGuire - Terrible game against the Aussies killed him. His kicking was awful, he didn't support in attack the same way he does for Leeds.

Jamie Peacock - I don't feel that he is as impressive at second row. He was supposed to improve the defence against Inglis, but as we showed both times, that didn't work.

Scott Moore - His first (and only) game of the tournament against France was a shocker for him. His passing was terrible and he didn't seem to really create anything.

Lee Smith & Tom Briscoe - Terrible game against Aussies killed them like it did to McGuire. Their defence wasn't strong enough, and they couldn't create any chances down the wing

positives

peter fox- played two games and he was fantastic on the wing, think we could have an extremely good future for england, he was very very good last night and shows so much passioin.

michael shenton- hes been extremely solid and should come back a better player for it, been extremely impressed with his defense, could get him and hall more ball though.

sam tomkins and kyle eastmond- i think one thing people forget about these two is their age, 20 years of age and they are leading the national team around the park, yes they have got improvement but that will come with age- they are impeccible talents and are two people who our country should be proud of having.

eorl crabtree- he has been fantastic for us in this tournamet, a real revelation, turned size into talent, awesome tournament.

sam burgess- what a player, him like tomkins and eastmond are the players we want to be building our national future around. hes a phenominon and would walk into the aussie squad- he will be going over there with a huge rep.

kevin sinfield- ive rated sinfield in this tourny when hes gone to hooker- i actually think this could be his best position for england to compliment the squad- with the flair of tomkins and eastmond we need the likes of sinfield to steady us.

negatives

scott moore, danny mcguire, lee smith

just out of interest, i didn't watch the second half last night, how many penalities did bridge give away since he's getting panned for it?

Eastmond and Tompkins surprised me. Neither relly took a game by the scruff and controlled the team but they showed enough to suggest they may develop into something good.

Our pack was good generally as expected but hooker was a big dissapointment. When I think of all the great Hokkers GB has had we seem very poor at the moment. Our outside backs are just very avg and don;t look to threaten at all.