Look's like there is a lot of unrest on here at the moment. People having a pop at Betts, Cull etc. What did you really expect coming into the season? You're gonna need a few years to build a good squad/team and it won't happen overnight. I agree r.e Betts as coach, I think Noble would be a good shout or John Kear. I think you need a quality halfback as well. Don't get too down, I think you have done really well with ball in hand, just woeful defensively.

Expectations? Try and go a couple of weeks without suspending/sacking anyone!

My expectations were bottom, or there abouts. We have even fallen well short of that. Until Betts is sacked it will only get worse.

No more news of players leaving, getting suspended, or injured would be nice for now.

I think I predicted 10th before the start of the season!



I'd settle for 13th.

If we're this rubbish next year, it's our license gone. Fans are dwindling away quicker than you can imagine and then all we've got left is a shiny stadium and unforgiving pitch!

Quite simply to be doing the basics right. I genuinely wanted us to put all our effort into defence this year. To be difficult to break down but our defence is as solid as a wet paper towel!
I've been very forgiving of a lot of our pastings this year and I've attended nearly all of them. I've even bought into some of the excuses around injuries (which tbf we have had a lot), the weather even (having seen my jelly babies freeze together and was moved to experience my first ever bovril).
I expected quite a few and I expect a few more to come but the performance on Monday was simply shocking. I think nearly every fan would have been far more forgiving had we been competitive last year. As it was, this season is just a continuance of last year. I'm also completely certain that a more competent coach would have us performing better.

This is the frustrating thing about it all. I think that we have a core of decent players, even with the injuries, that could be at least keeping the scores respectable. I think that Denis Betts is just so catastrophically incompetent that we'll never see the best of what these players have to offer while he is here. This is why I'm reluctant to point the finger at the players. There is absolutely no structure to our attack or defence. No plays - nothing. We lose the ruck on almost every occasion, both going forward and in defence. Teams make easy yards against us. I see no lack of effort until they inevitably tire. This is just pure bad coaching and perhaps a lack of fitness. You don't need super stars in order to create a good defence. Just a man in charge who knows what he is doing and can ensure that every player is drilled as to what exactly he should and what he shouldn't be doing, and where he needs to be. We need someone who can see what's going wrong and put things right. No-one could turn this team into a top 8 side but, like you say, we should be doing better. It doesn't matter which players we bring in, nothing will change under Betts. He's possibly the worst professional coach I've ever seen in my life - and I've seen some bad ones in my time.

There can be only one reason why SOC kept him as our Super League head coach and only one reason why he won't sack him - MONEY! SOC has now stated, categorically, that the one thing he will not spend heavily on is the first team. So, unfortunately, Littlerich's bright, Man City style, future does not beckon next season. We are likely to get just more of the same.

To my mind, SOC has created this mess by keeping Betts. He should acknowledge this and do the right thing. Otherwise his stubborn nature will drag us all back down to the championship and see the heart ripped out of the fan base at this club.

Pepe I do think you are overacting predicting certain doom for the club based on a 14 game season!

Not disagreeing whatsoever I'd replace Betts as really don't see any real structure to the side (why Noble would now be the ideal fix IMO). But maybe SO'C just see's no benefit in sacking now and trying to replace (yes I'd disagree) and feels acting at the end of the year and giving a new man a decent budget as the best way?

If things continued in the same vein and Betts was still coach next season (without any shock big signings) then I'd be concerned. But SO'C has only just dragged us back into SL so the say he's going to drag us back to the Championship and rip the heart out of the club is ridiculously OTT and disrespectful too baring in mind this is effectively go one at a 3 season stint minimum.

Quote ="J20"Pepe I do think you are overacting predicting certain doom for the club based on a 14 game season! Not disagreeing whatsoever I'd replace Betts as really don't see any real structure to the side (why Noble would now be the ideal fix IMO). But maybe SO'C just see's no benefit in sacking now and trying to replace (yes I'd disagree) and feels acting at the end of the year and giving a new man a decent budget as the best way? If things continued in the same vein and Betts was still coach next season (without any shock big signings) then I'd be concerned. But SO'C has only just dragged us back into SL so the say he's going to drag us back to the Championship and rip the heart out of the club is ridiculously OTT and disrespectful too baring in mind this is effectively go one at a 3 season stint minimum.'" We won't be giving any coach a decent budget, if we are to take SOC's word. He has stated that we will not spend big until we get 7,000 VSH members. The heart is being ripped out of the club as we speak. look at the away support we took to Castleford. Look at the pitiful crowd at the Saints game. People are cancelling their VSH memberships now, and I would expect the majority to do so at the end of the season if things don't change. SOC doesn't seem to want that change, so I see no reason, whatsoever, to be optimistic on that front. I know you like to be optimistic about the club and the team, Joey, and that does you credit, but I'm afraid you have been wrong on almost all of your optimistic view points. Right down the ing line, mate. The clamour for a 10 club SL is growing, and that is largely down to the Widnes VIkings. So much so, your optimism is starting to look more and more out of touch with reality and very misplaced. Hope you are right like but... www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... -bite.html

Quote ="J20"Pepe I do think you are overacting predicting certain doom for the club based on a 14 game season! Not disagreeing whatsoever I'd replace Betts as really don't see any real structure to the side (why Noble would now be the ideal fix IMO). But maybe SO'C just see's no benefit in sacking now and trying to replace (yes I'd disagree) and feels acting at the end of the year and giving a new man a decent budget as the best way? If things continued in the same vein and Betts was still coach next season (without any shock big signings) then I'd be concerned. But SO'C has only just dragged us back into SL so the say he's going to drag us back to the Championship and rip the heart out of the club is ridiculously OTT and disrespectful too baring in mind this is effectively go one at a 3 season stint minimum.'" We won't be giving any coach a decent budget, if we are to take SOC's word. He has stated that we will not spend big until we get 7,000 VSH members. The heart is being ripped out of the club as we speak. look at the away support we took to Castleford. Look at the pitiful crowd at the Saints game. People are cancelling their VSH memberships now, and I would expect the majority to do so at the end of the season if things don't change. SOC doesn't seem to want that change, so I see no reason, whatsoever, to be optimistic on that front. I know you like to be optimistic about the club and the team, Joey, and that does you credit, but I'm afraid you have been wrong on almost all of your optimistic view points. Right down the ing line, mate. The clamour for a 10 club SL is growing, and that is largely down to the Widnes VIkings. So much so, your optimism is starting to look more and more out of touch with reality and very misplaced. Hope you are right like but... www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... -bite.html

Joey, some good points as always mate. I was thinking the other day that SOC said there was no point in appointing a new coach now as they would have no cash to invest in any new players at this stage of the season.

...Well we suddenly find ourselves in a position where have a percentage of £180k to play with. With this in mind and in light of having this money to spend, other clubs shuffling their playing rosters a bit, Monday's performance and the fact that we will shortly begin the process of putting together a list of potential 2013 targets now is the perfect time to move for a new coach.

I personally think SOC will give it one more go digging his hands in his pockets next year before deciding enough is enough despite what he has been saying. I think some of this "I'm not putting any more money in is posturing" to try and encourage fans to turn up.

Quote ="Pepe"We won't be giving any coach a decent budget, if we are to take SOC's word. He has stated that we will not spend big until we get 7,000 VSH members. The heart is being ripped out of the club as we speak. look at the away support we took to Castleford. Look at the pitiful crowd at the Saints game. People are cancelling their VSH memberships now, and I would expect the majority to do so at the end of the season if things don't change. SOC doesn't seem to want that change, so I see no reason, whatsoever, to be optimistic on that front. I know you like to be optimistic about the club and the team, Joey, and that does you credit, but I'm afraid you have been wrong on almost all of your optimistic view points. Right down the loving line, mate. The clamour for a 10 club SL is growing, and that is largely down to the Widnes VIkings. So much so, your optimism is starting to look more and more out of touch with reality and very misplaced. Hope you are right like but... www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... -bite.html'" pepe i support you 100%, i didnt expect miracles and expected wins along the way , i just wanted us to get on with it get a better gate and gradualy see an improvement along the way alot off the squad do give it there all ,but off field antics drinking fighting is not acceptable in any proffesional sport the Discipline comes from the club so obviously dont give a T--s about the club or supporters they should be to embarrased going out in the Town with some of the embarrasing results what about respect for the younger guys who have been exceptional this season and senior players should be the roll models , week by week were losing support steve o connors to blame with Head coach ,knowing how poor we was last year to give him the roll this year was an awful mistake Dave Banks should have been put in charge instead of panicking . Fact Denis had a few weeks as Head coach at wigan why did they not give him a go cause he wasnt ready so he went to union for what 5 or more years was shocking last year as head coach . I love this club and if SOC isnt willing to change now its making people very bitter against him , some stabbility is needed and Quick simon moran at warrington was in the same position with Cull till supporters forced him out he then waited for the right coach to come available so make the descion Steve before its to late or we GO .

Quote ="Pepe"We won't be giving any coach a decent budget, if we are to take SOC's word. He has stated that we will not spend big until we get 7,000 VSH members. The heart is being ripped out of the club as we speak. look at the away support we took to Castleford. Look at the pitiful crowd at the Saints game. People are cancelling their VSH memberships now, and I would expect the majority to do so at the end of the season if things don't change. SOC doesn't seem to want that change, so I see no reason, whatsoever, to be optimistic on that front. I know you like to be optimistic about the club and the team, Joey, and that does you credit, but I'm afraid you have been wrong on almost all of your optimistic view points. Right down the loving line, mate. The clamour for a 10 club SL is growing, and that is largely down to the Widnes VIkings. So much so, your optimism is starting to look more and more out of touch with reality and very misplaced. Hope you are right like but... www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyl ... -bite.html'" pepe i support you 100%, i didnt expect miracles and expected wins along the way , i just wanted us to get on with it get a better gate and gradualy see an improvement along the way alot off the squad do give it there all ,but off field antics drinking fighting is not acceptable in any proffesional sport the Discipline comes from the club so obviously dont give a T--s about the club or supporters they should be to embarrased going out in the Town with some of the embarrasing results what about respect for the younger guys who have been exceptional this season and senior players should be the roll models , week by week were losing support steve o connors to blame with Head coach ,knowing how poor we was last year to give him the roll this year was an awful mistake Dave Banks should have been put in charge instead of panicking . Fact Denis had a few weeks as Head coach at wigan why did they not give him a go cause he wasnt ready so he went to union for what 5 or more years was shocking last year as head coach . I love this club and if SOC isnt willing to change now its making people very bitter against him , some stabbility is needed and Quick simon moran at warrington was in the same position with Cull till supporters forced him out he then waited for the right coach to come available so make the descion Steve before its to late or we GO .

Agree, he has said he is covering £400,000 worth of costs this year yet some seem to still crtiticse not spending more?

Pepe on the decent budget if we are right this years budget wasn't too bad just either A) not that well spent B) Lack of targets or C) In case of Briscoe / Watts & Moore either gone or hardly been on the pitch!

P.s. the 10 club idea would kill pro Rugby League and It's not as if other Sports don't have there e teams, yet for some reason RL fans are very quick to highlight (probably as no P&R).

Surely part of the franchise system is so if one year goes pear shaped the second can be transformed? Hence the benefit of no relegation. Widnes are the new boys in SL simple as that whichever way we want to look at it so when people use 14 games to try and say there are 4 too many teams in SL it's a bit ridiculous.

Every year there will be crap and good sides it's as simple as that, people would have been saying similar about Salford & Wakey last year who have done alright this year.

I just want him to put right the huge mistake HE made in appointing Denis Betts, by sacking him. This is the cause of most of our problems. If he had got a good coach in the first place he may have saved himself a fortune. Instead he tried to skimp in the cost of the coach, and that is always a recipe for disaster.


And this effectively proves what I am saying about Denis Betts, and why he shouldn't have been hired in the first place. You also seem to forget that Scott Moore played in some of our worst performances and defeats. So, his presence, or lack of it, can hardly be described as a major factor. As for Watts - who knows?




How would it kill pro RL? SL will probably revert to a 12 club league, imo anyway. If things carry on the same way, that [iwill[/i be without us.




We know all this, Joey. People aren't angry because we are simply crap. We are utterly hopeless, uncompetitive, and are heading towards having the worst ever points against total. I could prove a far harder task to turn us around than either of those two clubs. Wakey did better than we are doing now with half a team of kids, under Kear. It's even more ironic that you mention them as a prime example, given the circumstances. And it shows just how much the club have ed up.

The fact of the matter is, the current board have failed to turn around poor form for the past 4 seasons. That's not exactly a confidence boosting statistic. There's certainly no hindsight from me, Joey. I said last season that this was likely to happen. We were dross in the Championship last season, had no momentum coming up, and kept on the incompetent , as coach, who made us so poor in the first place. I, and several other Widnes fans, have been proven correct in our dismal view. Go back over the posts on here and the TIW site, of mine and the likes of "Own Brain" and "V4E". No hindsight here, Chief.

Spot on Pepe

I've tried to keep to myself lately, because frankly it makes me sad. Steve O'Connor now needs to get his head out of his , we won't get 7000 VSH members with a team made utterly by inept coaching and conditiong, we need some on field momentum - which tends to have a snowball effect of its own. But you need first team investment AND SOUND first team investment at that. Finger wagging at supporters won't make the squad and coaching staff better (the quality of which is turning people away) admitting he's ed up and then making some hefty contract offers will. The infrastructure at the club is first rate, all the obvious stuff and right through to performance analysis etc. The problem is having the staff to properly assess situations, formulate solutions and generally understand the needed standards of super league, we don't have the staff for this. Get your head out of your and deal with it O'Connor. Its time to man up and make the ruthless decisions.

I'll copy this into here as it was this topic that got me thinking about it.

Yes things aren't all rosy but...

Most people inside and outside of Widnes RL fans had us tipped to finish bottom. A lot on here said they wouldn't be bothered with that as long as we remained competitive in most games.

So right we are bottom but unfortunately we haven't been competitive in most (but in some) and got 2 wins and ok yes two big, big losses in Hudds & Catalan. This is probably a good point to re-assert I'd prefer a new experienced and well structured head coach.

So what season are we having on that basis? SIMPLY underachieving? We haven't lost every game like some predicted. We are all disappointing and a few individual events (sackings) have added to this. But overall we are just a bit worse than many expected. Wire, Saints & Leeds are also 'underachieving' from what was expected of them?

That is why I really don't get the maintained anger and desperation to cause mass hysteria over our situation!

The money currently in SL is based on a 14 team league if that reduces the money WILL go down. That will mean two LESS full time teams, two less academies bringing through kids and at least 50 less full time pros.

Players like Davies, Marsh etc who all have potential but (maybe in Marsh case) get released from top clubs may not get a 2nd chance. All these proposed plans for 2 x 10 team leagues all miss the question of where will the money to fund them come from? WE have had 2 x 12 team leagues with P&R before so it's not an all great new idea!

I think putting predictions of our imminent removal from SL after 14 games is the OTT point. I'm sure SO'C is again aware of on field requirements and will act on that accordingly. Yes I hope it is sooner rather than later but it doesn't have to be imminent.

We have been “simply underachieving” for the last four years, Joey.

Only two big losses eh? Are you sure about that? I think you might want to check the Super League results page again, mate. Your post is just a load of spin, Joey. It masks the reality of what is actually happening. We aren’t just under achieving a bit. We are falling well short of where a fully pro Super League club should be. We are truly abysmal. Fans, who cough up a small fortune to follow them, are quite rightly angered by what they see, and are now voting with their feet. That is a very, very dangerous situation.

Once you accept, as you have, that the coach isn't good enough and think he needs to go, to be replaced by a "more experienced, well structured coach", you must accept that the team is more than just under achieving a bit, or that would be a pretty OTT point of view. You then must accept that SOC has made a mistake in giving him a 2-year Super League contract too. This is pretty much all I am saying. So perhaps I'm not so OTT after all? - well, not unless you are too.



I'm am far from hysterical, and I'm not one of the brain dead loonies on the TIW forum. I share few of their views, and my thoughts should not be linked by you, or anyone else, to these inane and childish people with their ill-tempered and childish polemic.

I am neither hysterical nor OTT. I think deeply about the situation and look ahead to possible/probable pitfalls. My thoughts and concerns, on these boards, have proven to be justified time and time again.




It isn’t OTT, Joey. The majority of RL journalists are now of the opinion that Widnes should not have been given a licence, including the decent ones like Andy Wilson.

Like I said, I think the league will end up at 12 clubs. Super League has been at that number for most of it’s existence, so I think we can safely say that your prediction of the collapse of RL, under such circumstances, as simply wrong. If you listen to the majority of RL journalists, again they seem to be in agreement that 14 clubs are too many. They like to remind everybody in the sport of this every time Widnes take yet another thrashing. I guess that nearly everyone is OTT except you then?

So, should the Super League be reduced to 12 again, who would you kick out before Widnes?

Somehow I missed this post. That is a very interesting angle. You are right too. With our two biggest wage earners now gone, SOC may now have the money to dump Betts and stay within his budget for this season. He may not have to dig too deeply in to his pockets in order to bring the odd player in either. There will be a few players moved on next year as well, so that should give him the chance to replace them with some better quality, without digging too deeply into his own pockets again. With a good coach, that could be enough to lift the team off the bottom next season.

If he insists on hanging on to Betts for much longer though, I don't think it would make any difference what SOC does.

Fingers crossed, eh?

Why have you used my OTT remark for points where I simply haven't used it?

The only point I said was OTT was predicting we'll be gone by 2015 based on our first 14 games.

P.s. 14th 13th & 12th from last 3 franchise years.

2009 - Cru - Salford - Hull FC
2010 - Catalan - Quins - Salford
2011 - Cru - Wakey - Quins

2012 - Widnes - Quins - Wakey (as it stands)

By many 12 / 10 team supporters Catalan would have been well gone yet within 2 years are one of the top sides? Hull FC & Cru both made plsyoffs too.

SHIT TEAMS CAN GET BETTER!

So that is the only area of which you regard my post as OTT and hysterical?

It seemed to me that you found the general tenet of my point of view to be hysterical. That is why I used it elsewhere. If I was wrong, then I apologise.

Like I said, many in the RL media are saying just that, so maybe not that OTT?







Do you think that Les Catalan were going to be dropped? Do you think that the same patience would be shown, by the RFL towards Widnes? Do we have the same Aussie quota as they had to build a side? Did they get the recruitment of coaches so disastrously wrong? Do they hang on to their coach, when he proves himself to be incapable of actually coaching? Do they limit themselves to only unproven, young English coaches?

Would Hull FC and Crusaders have improved quite so dramatically under Betts? Do you actually think that?

All of the teams you mention would know, full well, that they are bullet proof, no matter what, in the licence system. We are not. We are in a small group of clubs that are very vulnerable and have a great deal to prove. Couple that, with our week in week out humiliations, coach and the ipitch, and it is going to be difficult to attract good players to turn things around in quite the same way, without spending a lot of money - probably up to the cap. Unfortunately, SOC has stated that he is not prepared to do this. None of the teams you mention were quite so catastrophically bad as us. Perhaps you should consider that aspect of the situation, rather than just looking at league ladders. That will tell you very little about the overall situations these clubs were in. I could point to Halifax and Leigh, and it would be equally as meaningless.



Some get better, some don't. Some have a lot to prove, some don't. Some spend to the cap, some don't. Some ensure they have the best coaches they can get to ensure that they improve, some don't.

Just because you say that and it happens now and then doesn't mean it will happen for us.

This is a classic piece of deluded complacency. I hope the club don't think the same way. For us to achieve this, major restructuring of the coaching and fitness departments need to take place. If this does not occur, would you still be so confident, Joey?

So, I'll ask again, if the SL drops back to 12 clubs, which is a real possibility, who do you think will get the chop before us, as things now stand?