One thing to bear in mind is the the profitability under the previous regime has now been shown to have been generated off the back of leveraging some tax/NI loopholes that have since been closed and at one point plain not paying a tax bill on time/at all. Not to mention underinvestment in facilities/youth.

if kath had have merged the academies she would have been killed!

Radford was such a short sighted appointment in the first place, and like most things in rugby league looked to have just followed the latest 'fad' or 'trend'.

A few years previous the trend was to appoint Aussie no 2s, Wigan had great success with McGuire, Potter and others in this mould were successful so we followed suit and appointed Gentle who fit a similar criteria. Following the NRL over technical and over coaching model was seen as the way forward. By the time Gentle's two years were up a new trend was set, no nonsense British coaches were all the rage, forwards who never took a backwards step, hardworking and wouldnt be afraid to use the 'hair dryer'. Leeds had success with McDermott, and Wigan had done the double with Wane and Anderson in the same mould took and unlikely Huddersfield to the league leaders shield, a cynic could say that AP just used this formula in appointing Radford, and all of these magical attributes that only AP see's are just his way of justifying his terribly thought out decision.

I must admit I'm excited about the direction of next seasons recruitment though, Pritchard is a real handful and most importantly for an import of his age is still performing to a decent level, and the other three are talented younger players with ability and something to prove.

That I'm afraid though is overshadowed by Pearsons ridiculous stance on Radford, the coaches philosophy on style of play and young players, and the sour taste left by the decision to sell our future short for a drop in running costs and a grant from the RFL, without even being able to really sell the idea himself other then saying "it's for the best". I'm afraid I won't be a 'customer' next year.

That's because kath was milking it like I said many times only to be ridiculed by the person who started this thread

Difference between radford and the other 3 you mention is that they all took over from a coach who had done the donkey work in turning each club into a successful operation. None of them put the foundations in place themselves which is what radford is having to do

So surley someone like Brian Smith would have been the ideal choice for a job like that? Not a rookie coach. I honestly don't see what foundations Radford is putting in place, he's going from week to week trying to win games and finish as high as possible. I'm not blaming him TBH, he will have known that not finishing in the 8 would have been a disaster. We have no real defined style of play or direction, it was even admitted that the senior players had to request a change in style of play, although I do respect Radford's open mindedness in that situation TBH. Some of our best performing players this year have been Rankin, Ellis, Pryce and Mini none of whom have any real long term future at the club and will all need replacing, most of our talented younger players have either been sold/released, gone backwards under him or not getting a look in. While the signings look good for next year, I'm not sure retaining Micheals and Yeamo are great forward thinking moves either. All sides need a transition period and results can generally be either totally ignored or at least allowances made when sides are in transition especially if a lot of young inexperienced players are being played, but I would hardly call this side a transition side.

You implied she was taking large amounts of cash out of the club. In the context of several years of profit I said this was unlikely as dividends would have been illegal, so her supposed massive salary would a) have had to have come out of the P&L and b) would have required sanctioning by the board as she had a minority share.

I still think we're currently well short of the ability of the top 3 to finance a large and high quality coaching set-up (we've seen the extensive personnel Leeds and Wigan employ), run a squad at full cap+ and deliver a top notch academy. At the moment it seems that the eggs are in the first team squad basket, much like most teams outside the elite group.

So kath was turning up every day put of her love for the club? Who do you think was running the show? kath or the other directors? What was happening to the money that wasn't being paid into overseas players' ebt funds, spent on training facilities or the academy? What about the money that was been saved utilising tax avoidance schemes? We're currently operating on this reduced income you're telling us about, spending the money we should be on facilities etc and we still broke even last year. You explain to me, as an accountant, where you think the money used to go?

The club made profits of around £1m IIRC during the last board's tenure, enabled partly by not spending appropriately on the academy but after taking into account any payments to KH. Since AP took over nearly £800k has been lost. We didn't break even last year, gates are down again and many on here are saying they're not renewing. Sponsorship is likely to be lower - remember the P&O deal that was the largest of its kind at the time? The record shirt sales? IIRC we averaged 14k one year. Wilf is saying we've given up on 12k as a target now.

Let's say the reductions in income are offset by increased Sky monies - it's possible, and that on average over a c 15 year period we broke even. My point, in the opening post, is that Leeds, with £11m turnover, Saints with £7m & own stadium and Wigan with £7m and a cashed up owner, all three of which have higher gates too (and possibly better sponsorship) are currently much better placed than us financially, and the gap will be hard to close in the short term. Are you satisfied we have the size and quality of these three's back room staff? If not, and gates fall again, I just don't see how the expectation we can compete on a level playing field is justified.

Maybe it's the re-marketing he's talking about?

After all, "If you don't like it, don't come" would be in a marketing masterclass and the subject of numerous MBA courses for decades to come

You posted the other week that we lost less than £30k in the last set of accounts which you said was pretty much break even. Your other points I've already covered and said that the stadium is the reason we can't compete financially. wire made a large profit on lower attendances than us

It was £74k, so in the context of the £0.8m lost so far not too bad. We're agreeing at least we can't compete on a level playing field income wise, which was sort of my opening point. Unless we get a big hike in season ticket sales (and the opposite will be true if this board is anything to go by), what are the realistic ambitions for the club going forward? Continued downward loop, new owner?

Which is a different point. But the reaction to Pearson merging the academies hasn't been much better TBH. And rightly so - it's a disgrace.

Limited options but a simple choice IMO. Pearson needs to set some of his ego aside, start admitting a few more of the mistakes he's made and rectifying them. Spend the money that is available in the areas it will provide the most benefit for the cost and start rebuilding from there. Unfortunately two of the areas that would seem to be most obvious for this also seem to be where we are/will be doing things on the cheap. Aim to overtake Hudds/Cas/maybe Wire for now and see where that gets us.

He also needs to work on repairing the relationship with the fans IMO, instead of the at times confrontational and patronising way he has spoken. This last point will also cost absolutely nothing.

Agreed. Can't see it happening though. I think he's in a tricky position. For reasons articulated already on this thread, he won't be recouping the £800k losses anytime soon, let alone selling at a profit. There are unlikely to be any buyers willing to take the club off his hands either should be want to cut his losses. The only route IMO to keep the value in his investment is to take us with him. This could fairly easily be done IMO through measured and reasonable explanation of the state the club was in 4 years ago, investments to date and their successes and failures, context of the competition and plans for the next 1-3 years. The tone of comms from both AP and Clarkey is counter-productive but so important.

TBF, in a few interviews Pearson has admitted he has made mistakes.

I think next season we have the squad to challenge the likes of Cas and Hudds.

Warringtons recruitment has been pretty good also.

We have a good squad on paper.... but...

We will find out next year if Radford can progress us to the next level or not.

On paper it looks a solid top 6 squad, IF Ellis recovers and is back for the start of the season and with Pritchard, Taylor et al that is a really, really strong set of forwards that is the match for pretty much everyone.
What happens behind the pack though is where we've tripped up plus we need some mental toughness, we absolutely need to find avenues to get the players stronger in that respect whether that be to stop heads going down and imploding or just being able to stick to the game plan when under duress and ensure we do the basics right.
Not doing that has brought about our downfall too often.

The £11m turnover for Leeds, is this solely the Rhinos or does thus include the Union team? What I do know is, their corporate hospitality is huge in comparison to any other RL club in the UK. Not sure if the Rhinos own their stadium, but I think it maybe part of Caddicks business empire. St's do have their own stadium which I'd imagine they have a decent mortgage to finance it.

Anyway. Realistically what would make the opinion of the stay away fans change? Is it a matter of changing the coach or is it going to take a sustained period of winning to get bums on seats?

Winning will obviously increase gates but the coup for Pearson would be to appoint a first class coach.That would have a bigger impact on fans buying a season pass than signing The likes of Pritchard.It would also show fans he has admitted his mistake appointing Radford.
Apart from Pearson there are very few people who have any faith left in Radford as a coach.

No. Saints have no bank debt, and was majorly financed (currently £15m) by a friend of Eamon McManus who also happens to be a Saints fan. The club can pay this back at any rate, and any debt remaining at the end of the 2018 will be liquidated into shares (or postponed) and the club will again be completely debt free. It will all come down to whether McManus wants to retire, and if he does the baton will be passed into a fan whose already proven his commitment financially (or at least that's my current understanding)

Interesting. If that's the case, how come saints were so skint during the build process?

Mcmanus still poured a lot of his own funds into the project, as well as modernising the training and youth facilities as an aside, and paying off directors loans we had outstanding from the early days of SL at the same time - i think McManus + sale of kr made up the remaining £10m for the stadium. I also think an element of idealism (a saints team in a saints stadium) meant we could have invested more in the playing side but chose not to - but that's more personal conjecture than what the accounts say.

I'll have a closer look on the saints accounts when they're published like I always do, but I'm 95% that's what was gleaned from last years accounts, and presume the accounts this year say the same...

Whatever, you're in a much better financial position than us