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| I've just read that the two year deadline passed yesterday for IL to reduce his shareholding in Harlequins from 65% to 25% meaning that he still owns the club and they have breeched rules throwing their future into doubt. Leneghan refused to comment saying negotiations were ongoing. Quins made record SL losses last year of £1.8m. Anyone have any more info on this and how if at all it will affect us? On another sub note, if they made losses of 1.8m does that mean they have a -900,000 salary cap next year? I don't understand?
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| Quote ="AFewPintsLater..."I've just read that the two year deadline passed yesterday for IL to reduce his shareholding in Harlequins from 65% to 25% meaning that he still owns the club and they have breeched rules throwing their future into doubt. Leneghan refused to comment saying negotiations were ongoing. Quins made record SL losses last year of £1.8m. Anyone have any more info on this and how if at all it will affect us? On another sub note, if they made losses of 1.8m does that mean they have a -900,000 salary cap next year? I don't understand?'"
The salary cap has no relationship at all to the operating profit & loss of the clubs.
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| Quote ="AFewPintsLater..."Leneghan refused to comment'"
Well knock me down with a feather...
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As far as the seriousness of the issue, yes, its a breach of the rules, but he will be allowed to remain in that position until someone takes his shareholding. The RFL aren't stupid enough to jepordise the future of SLRL in London by kicking up a stink about this.
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| Quote ="AJ"Well knock me down with a feather...
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As far as the seriousness of the issue, yes, its a breach of the rules, but he will be allowed to remain in that position until someone takes his shareholding. The RFL aren't stupid enough to jepordise the future of SLRL in London by kicking up a stink about this.'"
Bloody hell AJ, if you're a guy in the media eye, would you answer everything you were asked straight away when you were asked it? Especially when it's something as sensitive as this?
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| Quote ="Steve Ella's Beard"Bloody hell AJ, if you're a guy in the media eye, would you answer everything you were asked straight away when you were asked it? Especially when it's something as sensitive as this?'"
Chill, I can fully understand why he wouldn't answer something like this.
The Gareth Hock issue however, or has PV left the club are surely lesss sensitive?
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| I'd imagine IL's Harlequins shares will be sold when someone comes along to buy them, and that's all there is to it.
The RFL will say and do nothing. Do they really want to see London go out of business again?
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| Quote ="Cruncher"I'd imagine IL's Harlequins shares will be sold when someone comes along to buy them, and that's all there is to it.
The RFL will say and do nothing. Do they really want to see London go out of business again?'"
The answer to that is obviously NO
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| From what i understand I.L. has no active involvement with Quins on the day to day running of the club. And if that stays that way i dont think the RFL will push the matter of the shares as others have said they want a club in London. They know we are not in a good financial climate for selling a R.L. club and i think I.L. will continue with the financial support until the right buyer comes along as in the last 2 years it has done Wigan nor London any harm.
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| I blame Noble
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| Quins cant even sell season tickets so how the hell will they find somebody with a few million pound.
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| Quote ="Andy Greg"From what i understand I.L. has no active involvement with Quins on the day to day running of the club. And if that stays that way i dont think the RFL will push the matter of the shares as others have said they want a club in London. They know we are not in a good financial climate for selling a R.L. club and i think I.L. will continue with the financial support until the right buyer comes along as in the last 2 years it has done Wigan nor London any harm.'"
Unfortunately business and regulations don't work that way. What if they breached the cap... oh just sweep it under the carpet? What you've said is exactly what could be wrong with our game at the moment and by the same token goes against everything that has punished our club over the past decade.
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| Quote ="AFewPintsLater..."Unfortunately business and regulations don't work that way. What if they breached the cap... oh just sweep it under the carpet? What you've said is exactly what could be wrong with our game at the moment and by the same token goes against everything that has punished our club over the past decade.'"
I can't be sure of course, but it seems likely that IL is fairly well up on business regulations.
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| Quote ="AFewPintsLater..."Unfortunately business and regulations don't work that way. What if they breached the cap... oh just sweep it under the carpet? What you've said is exactly what could be wrong with our game at the moment and by the same token goes against everything that has punished our club over the past decade.'"
Since the cap went live it is near impossible to breach the cap as you cannot sign players until you have satisfied the RFL that you can fit them under the cap space for that club.
I am sure there are ways of getting round this but having spoken to I.L. on a number of occasions and from all his interviews at Wigan he will not make back door payments. And i would presume that this is one of the rules that Quins will have to abide by if they want him to keep putting money into the club.
Plus this is nothing to do with business regulations it is an RFL rule plus there is nothing to stop someone owning more than one business. And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty there is a certain Husband and Wife team that own 2 clubs one in Leeds and one in Hull what is the difference between that and one man Owning and running one club and having an investment in but not running another club.
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| I'm not being funny but i just found that really funny...
"Having spoke to him many times and heard his interviews IL won't make back door payments..."
Are you suggesting that if he would make them he'd have sought you out to tell you in a conversation? Or that he'd do a question and answer session at a press conference about dropping bungs etc?
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| Quote ="Steve Ella's Beard"The salary cap has no relationship at all to the operating profit & loss of the clubs.'"
The appalling state of a number of SL clubs' finances is proof of the failure of the SC to prevent clubs from getting into financial difficulties.
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| Quote ="Deano G"The appalling state of a number of SL clubs' finances is proof of the failure of the SC to prevent clubs from getting into financial difficulties.'"
It would work if they made it simple like your cap was 50% of turnover.
Now every club is allowed to spend up to the cap limit no matter want there turn over is. Its sad that its gone from a way to try and keep clubs solvent to just keeping a level playing field.
The 50% of turn over would make the clubs promote themselves better to make more money so the could pay there players more and have a bigger squad. Rant over
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| As a non SL fan, I totally agree with Greg. Let the cream rise and the $hit be flushed away. Too many SL rely on the Sky money too heavily, yet are protected from the drop - what ambition?
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| Quote ="Deano G"The appalling state of a number of SL clubs' finances is proof of the failure of the SC to prevent clubs from getting into financial difficulties.'"
And the move to a live cap was a risk (to clubs finances) deemed worth taking all because of the fuss about Wigan deferring payments and other breaches of the cap (not just by Wigan).
Clubs were howling like mad that the punishment was only meted out the season after, well that is common enough in all walks of life including sport.
The only way they can revert to a the SC having any ability to reign in clubs spending if to stop having it "live" and to make breaking it have some consequence, make it one of the franchise criteria with the most points in the system.
Now we have a situation where clubs can't break the cap, clubs are in a financial mess but some are widely believed to have found ways of making back door payments and do so and so spend more anyway.
The only way clubs can be protected from themselves is a strict audit of a all income and expenditure and rules put in place that they can't spend any more than a certain percentage of income on anything not just wages.
This would not stop unscrupulous chairman paying players outside of the system out of their own pocket but at least it would stop clubs going bust. Wages are just one aspect of a clubs expenditure so while they may be able to hand out £1.6m in cash to players if they then end up in debt due to ground lease costs or whatever, just what is the point?
Dave
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Quote ="AJ"The RFL aren't stupid enough to jepordise the future of SLRL in London by kicking up a stink about this.'"
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 388266.stm
Could be the first steps towards jeopardising the future of SLRL in London............
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Quote ="AJ"The RFL aren't stupid enough to jepordise the future of SLRL in London by kicking up a stink about this.'"
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 388266.stm
Could be the first steps towards jeopardising the future of SLRL in London............
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| Quote ="Smooth Stu"news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/super_league/london/8388266.stm
Could be the first steps towards jeopardising the future of SLRL in London............'"
Why? Its only 1 criteria and the last Sky deal was 25% higher with a London team in SL. Quins are the safest of all clubs.
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| Quote ="Andy Greg"Since the cap went live it is near impossible to breach the cap as you cannot sign players until you have satisfied the RFL that you can fit them under the cap space for that club.
I am sure there are ways of getting round this but having spoken to I.L. on a number of occasions and from all his interviews at Wigan he will not make back door payments. And i would presume that this is one of the rules that Quins will have to abide by if they want him to keep putting money into the club.
Plus this is nothing to do with business regulations it is an RFL rule plus there is nothing to stop someone owning more than one business. And if you want to get down to the nitty gritty there is a certain Husband and Wife team that own 2 clubs one in Leeds and one in Hull what is the difference between that and one man Owning and running one club and having an investment in but not running another club.'"
I was only using the cap a vague example. My point was that in business as in RL and life in general you can't just sweep things under the carpet because it suits your objectives. I'm not saying this is the case here, as it wasn't me who suggested that. I'm just putting the real world facts across.
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| Quote ="AFewPintsLater..."I was only using the cap a vague example. My point was that in business as in RL and life in general you can't just sweep things under the carpet because it suits your objectives. I'm not saying this is the case here, as it wasn't me who suggested that. I'm just putting the real world facts across.'"
The rules can be applied reasonably though. They are there to stop a chairman owning more than one club, and there being a conflict of interests. I'm sure if any owner can demonstrate he's actively trying to sell his shares in one of the clubs, and there has been no conflict of interest (e.g. we've not tried to tap up LMS), then the RFL will let it pass on the understanding that IL continues to try and sell them ASAP.
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| Quote ="Andy Greg"It would work if they made it simple like your cap was 50% of turnover.
Now every club is allowed to spend up to the cap limit no matter want there turn over is. Its sad that its gone from a way to try and keep clubs solvent to just keeping a level playing field.
The 50% of turn over would make the clubs promote themselves better to make more money so the could pay there players more and have a bigger squad. Rant over'"
Unfortunately, turnover is a very poor indicator of how well a business is run, or how capable a rugby club is of supporting a particular wage bill. The mantra that any business man should have imprinted on their brain is "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity".
As an example, lets say two clubs both have turnovers of £3m, but to generate that turnover, club A has costs of £5m, so make a loss of £2m, club B has costs of £2m, so makes a profit of £1m. Is it fair that they both have the same cap of £1.5m, when one is clearly being run better than the other, as a going concern?
Surely there should be some consideration of solvency in any cap limit? I woould suggest that that should be the major factor, before turnover is considered.
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| Quote ="SomersetSaint"Unfortunately, turnover is a very poor indicator of how well a business is run, or how capable a rugby club is of supporting a particular wage bill. The mantra that any business man should have imprinted on their brain is "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity".
As an example, lets say two clubs both have turnovers of £3m, but to generate that turnover, club A has costs of £5m, so make a loss of £2m, club B has costs of £2m, so makes a profit of £1m. Is it fair that they both have the same cap of £1.5m, when one is clearly being run better than the other, as a going concern?
Surely there should be some consideration of solvency in any cap limit? I woould suggest that that should be the major factor, before turnover is considered.'"
Leeds for example last year had a turnover of over £10 million but still made a loss.
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