Except Fielden's defence and defensive workload is better than both of them (significantly in the case of Prescott) , and his go forward (per carry) is the same as Coley's and 0.1m less than Prescott's, whilst busting significantly more tackles than either of them (yet he's supposedly dominated in every tackle). The only area where Coley is better is offloads and even then it's coming at the cost of more errors and penalties (I would however like to see more offloads from Fielden)

Take Fieldens salary out of the equation and explain to me how Coley and Prescott are better.

Look at the defensive stats and in particular the work around the play the ball.

[urlhttp://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2009&hp1=420&hs2=2009&hp2=29&stat=tries&season=2008[/url


[urlhttp://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?season=2009&stat=marker_tackles&hs1=2009&hp1=2020&hs2=2009&hp2=29[/url

Fielden has made more metres than both Coley and Prescott, made more tackles and bust more tackles.

What's he doing wrong?

And don't forget that this time last year coley was being slated by almost everyone on here.

Stats shmats. It's what you see with your eyes.

According the Super League stats, Fielden also beats James Graham in those areas appart from metres.

Stats count for something. It may not tell the whole story but they give an indication of a players preformence imo.

Fielden won't get his old form back imo but his form of last season would be fine if he were on less money.

Thats what Wigan need to sort out if they're to keep him.

lmao ABP, i'm glad we're taking an objective approach to this. In the vast majority of cases I can find, the players who are perceived to be doing well in certain areas of play are also backed up by this on the stats. Now are you honestly saying that Fielden is operating in some sort of Bermuda Triangle zone where he (unlike the vast majority) has good stats but is actually the 4th best prop at our club?

It's doubly amazing that sensible posters, who can see the value of our new training methods and approaches (which include heavy use of statistical data) can be so dismissive of them in this case.

And no, I'm not just blindly defending Fielden I'll do it for any player that's getting unduly criticised. If anybody wants to criticise the amount of money we're paying for the return we get then that's an entirely different arguement and one i'd agree with (he was after all signed at a time when we were in dire straights and his contract reflects what a weak bargaining position the club was in at the time). But to try and make a case where a player isn't as good in areas where clearly the impartial data available backs up that he is? Of course i'll defend him.

You're absolutely correct they don't tell the whole story, but they certainly count and they do align very nicely with the players who are recognised as being strong in certain areas do have the stats to back them up.

One of the stats that does bemuse me is the tackle bust stat. I can't think of one occasion were he's burst through the defensive line. The only thing I can think of regarding this is when he 'bumps' off tacklers and comes backwards. His defensive work is never in question though.

I think if we're all honest about Fielden, we'd admit that we need him to be much more of a force during a match. Yes, his stats are good. No-one says he shirks the hard work. And by all accounts he's a smashing bloke off the field. But we're all long enough in the tooth to distinguish between an effective attacking forward and an ineffective one.

I can think of several prop forwards from earlier eras - Mills, Skerrett, Ward - who probably didn't do half as much work as Fielden, but who I'd rather have in my squad at present simply because they terrorised the opposition and battered their line into submission.

It all boils down to what you want from your front rowers. There are different jobs to do in that part of the field, but I think that being a fierce competitor is a basic requirement.

Compared to his first season with us, Stu is a rather a meek character these days. He never looks like he's going to smash through any more, he never puts some gobshizzer on the opposite side firmly on his butt.

The disappointing thing for me, as others have said, is that occasionally we've seen flashes of the old Fielden, but no more. When we lost to Hull KR at home in mid-summer, I thought he had an outstanding game. He was really up for it. He was breaking tackles, he was defending like a tiger - but then, the following week, the pussy cat was back. That is so frustrating from a fan's point of view.

We need more than just a guy who works hard. We need a soldier.

Unfortunately, stats do not show technique, running angles, speed, opportunities/missed opportunities, pace of getting to feet after being tackled etc etc, the list is endless.

Regardless of what the stats say, Prescott and Coley are IMO much more effective going forward. Coley tends to run wide angles towards the outside backs which is effective and makes yards. He also has a good offload too that our backs have capitalized on by trailing him (stats show this). Prescott is a good, direct runner. After the first collision, it's more than likely he is still on his feet gaining a few more yards before hitting the deck for a fast play the ball. Fielden's general technique tends to be receiving the ball, running mid-pace and ''stamping'' into the tackle which might bump off a defender (which will count as his tackle ''bust''), but it makes him stationary therefore making it easier for the defenders to tackle him and it also slows down a roll on that we're trying to create.

Just an example that stats don't show the above.

Tackle busts is not breaking the line, it's causing by merit of the attacking player the initial tackle to be ineffective, this could result in a line break but may not do. It's still a worthwhile statistic as it causes the defence to have to work harder and make more tackles. We don't have any publicly available stats for line breaks like there is for the NRL, and I think it's line breaks that you're probably looking for in this case (though again a line break can be achieved without physical force as well, so even then it's not exactly what you want)

I know they don't show all of the above, but in your analysis above you're also neglecting that to achieve the same metres per carry you must be doing something ok going forwards (or are the defence just magically creating space for Fielden that they don't for anybody else?). You're also judging Fielden on his 'stamp' technique when if you go back and watch last seasons games, particularly the latter half of the season he'd actually started to adjust his technique and was finding his front quickly in a tackle and facilitating a faster play the ball than he was in previous games and seasons.

You're also not looking at his defence at all, and particularly in the case of Prescott, Fieldens defensive ability and workrate is much higher than any other prop we have, which is why he gets paired with Feka. Trying to pair Prescott and Feka for example would be potentially disastrous defensively. So again the whole picture needs to be looked at. Not only is Fielden playing his own game, he's also acting as enabler to allow us to utilise Feka.

to be fair to Stu he does attract a lot of defenders due to his reputation more than others bar Feka. The difference between here and at Bradford is that you couldnt do that against the Bulls as the next drive they had another awesome forward running onto the ball so you couldnt put as many defenders in as you would want to as they needed to be ready for the next play. Against us you put 3 tacklers into him the next drive from Coley you could put him down 1 on 1 unlike you could do with the likes of Anderson, Vangana and McDeemott.

He does need to step it up I dont think you will find anyone saying he doesnt but 4th best isnt anywhere near the truth. Maybe a new management style will do him good as he has only known the Noble style really as he wasnt with McNamara for long.

The other thing that's completely bizarre, and might contribute heavily to the view that our pack 'gets dominated' most of the time, is how few carries we actually get them to make. Going through the numbers we utilise our front row less than the majority of other teams, yet when we do utilise them they make comparable metres per drive with even the 'best' teams forward packs.

Very strange really when Noble was a 'forwards driving the ball up' type of coach previously.

Exactly what I posted a few weeks back. He is no worse than Coley or Prescott, he is not as bad as everyone says. His defence is top notch, there is no denying it. The effort he puts in is unbelievable. The only thing to be solved is his wage, as the situation is now, he has to go ASAP but if he can play for less money then I would be happy to keep him but we are paying him to much for just being a great defender.

I am pretty sure if his go forward was like it was at Bradford but his defence was worse the Myler that people would be praising him.

One more thought that just occurred to me is that our biggest problems in winning games last season were making silly mistakes (either unforced handling errors, or general loose carries), lacking a decent kicking option on the 5th when outside the opposition 20m, and conceding penalties at key moments (either letting the opposition off when we had them heavily under pressure, or putting ourselves under all sorts of pressure when defending)

Basic Rugby skills, organisation, composure and discipline - not 'having the biggest baddest pack in SL'

Slightly off topic, but related to the style we play. According to the rugby press yesterday (League Express) Wigan scored more tries from their own half than any other team in Superleague.

Not bad for a boring side eh!

Scoring trys wasn't a problem last year imo. We weren't boring and Noble did seem to take off the shackles of previous seasons.

Our inconsistancy in general but especially in defence was what cost us imo. If we looked at our defence in the 2 league games before the challenge cup semi against Leeds and Saints it was immense and looked unbreakable at times yet it fell apart when it really mattered.

Thats something that really needs looking at and listening to Maguire he is doing just that. He's said he likes his teams to defend tough and defend well and if he can get us doing that i'm confident we have enough attacking weapons to win plenty of games.

Agree completely, defence is the absolute corner stone of being a winning side - it was John Monie's mantra: Defence and field position. Hell respecting the ball was even Noble's mantra, we just didn't always execute it too well - often giving a silly penalty or a stupid knock on at crucial moments in crucial field positions, coupled with a missed tackle and we lost games we would have won comfortably if our defence had been up to scratch consistently for 80 minutes every game. I think we've also not done ourselves any favours with lack of a good kick on the 5th when defending in our own 30 to 40 metres, meaning we've often been staight back under the cosh again and the mistakes start to come in as the pressure increases.

Agree.

So why do we want to get rid of one of our best defensive players in Fielden?

I agree with Nicky Kiss's post on the previous page, that if Fielden can be signed on a realistic (lower) salary, then I would give him a two year deal.

I'm sure Phil Clarke did his usual 'statistics' rubbish at the beginning of one of the games and we were one of the bottom teams. I take them with a pinch of salt.

We were a boring team last season for the vast majority of games. Our home ground is like a library at times. The atmosphere generated reflected our play - poor.

I was looking back at some of our games earlier in the season on the Super League website & it shocks me just how poor we were. Tim Smith was and still is the worst defender I have seen in Rugby League. Darrell Goulding was caught out numerous times as well. We got our first win when Phil Bailey was moved to centre, but even he was found out at Harlequins with their first try of the game. Martin Gleeson was a very important signing.

Which is why Tim Smith leaving & Martin Gleeson and Paul Deacon arriving are all very important.

I hate to say it but Gareth Hock was a very poor defender.

Agreed Gleeson has helped us defensively and is rightly getting praise. He like Fileden will be on a "big wedge"

So why is Fielden getting the stick despite being one of our best defenders?
It's crazy.

On the Deacon / Smith thing,we need to be wary.

Smith missed 14% of his tackles last season, Deacon missed 18%. I'm hoping that Deacons organisational skills more than make up for his defence.

The point about Deacon was referring to our poor 4th/5th/ kick tackle option that SEB was referring to.

In regards to Stuart Fielden the issue will always be he has not replicated his outstanding form for Bradford at Wigan & that because he will be on a 'big wedge' people will be very unhappy about it. His defensive effort cannot be questioned, but his go-forward, leg drive, enthusiasm, presence and general intimidating aura that he used to have can be. He may have made the most metres in the squad but compare his stats this year to his stats in 2004 & there you have the reason people are upset with Fielden. There are so many factors as to why he has/has not replicated his Bradford form in his latter years at Wigan. I believe that years of playing 80 minutes at the top level has taken its tole on his body. He has deteriorated in that sense as he has gone from an 80 minute prop forward to an impact player from the bench. Stuart Fielden used to throw a hissy fit every time he was taken off by Brian Noble, but now he starts from the bench. This has led to people questioning his heart and desire to play for Wigan or the passion in his game. I'm not sure whether I agree with it - you do your bit for the team at the end of the day & follow the coaches instructions, but I can understand why he recieves some of the criticism he gets from frustrated supporters who just want to see the Stuart Fielden from his time at Bradford. Likewise I can understand those that back him up as he is still the best performing prop forward in our squad.

Gleeson needs to up his game next year just like Fielden, his defence has been important for us but he also needs to offer more going forward.

Players on big money have to be more than one trick ponies.

With regards to Fielden and the stats, firstly i am very suspicious of the engange stats some of them simply do not make sense and have been odd throughout the year, secondly they do not take into account dominant tackles where a player dominates the attacker. Fielden gets his body in the way but rarely dominates the tackle slowing the defender down.

Leon Pryce will often take the ball up on the second or third tackle and find his front as soon as he meets the defensive line, the defender gets credited with a tackle but Pryce has cleverly generated a quick play the ball and put his team on the front foot, so although the defender gets a tick newxt to his name the attacker has won the battle at the ruck.

Fielden at the very least needs to dominate attackers not just bring them down and be happy with a tick next to his name, and neither should we the fans.

Big money players have to perform to somewhere near there salary cap value as yet in my speculative opinion neither Gleeson or Fielden has although Gleeson is much closer than Fielden has been thus far.

My exact views to.

To me the higher you salary the more you should contribute towards the team, big money players are paid higher salaries and therefore should in return offer far more than your regular run of the mill player. As yet Fielden isn't fulfilling his reputation or justifying his salary, but like everyone I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt next year.

Gleeson has undoubtedly sured up are defense down his side but like everyone else I still feel he has a lot more to show us in offence to justify his rather large wage.

Eyes on both and daggers at the ready.