How can Mossop and Crosby be tired? Their minutes per game is very low.
I'm personally sick to death of "20 minute joes" who look as if they have just been on a SAS exercise after five minutes.
My nature is to give people the benefit of the doubt as I find most people do give their best but Mossop and Crosby have under performed all season.

Absolutely spot on.

Nail on head, this style of play is a continuation of what Maguire brought over. The people criticising Wane for it are the same who laud Maguire as a genius for trying to play exactly the same way. It's funny seeing the double standards

But if you keep on using the same nail, eventually it becomes a bit blunt as well as being bent and does not perform as well, also if the bloke wielding the hammer is not as skilled has the bloke who drew the plans it becomes a shoddy job.

Another way of looking at the Wigan prop situation is, are they match fit?, but how can any one say that when most of them are playing every week.
One explanation could be this system of letting the backs take on a lot of the grunt when in there own half and letting the props stroll about awaiting to do the tackling when the opposition get the ball on there own forty.
This comment is a bit tongue in cheek, but I cant get it out of my mind how once in the first half the amount of time it took the Wigan forwards to get back onside after a Salford kick which fount touch in the Wigan twenty.

Someone mentioned Jamie Peacock during this thread and it puts some of the Wigan forwards to shame when you look at the amount of time he spends on the pitch.

A quick look at the Leeds boards and many think that Peacock has already lost his effectiveness and that Cuthbertson is a shadow of the player seen in February, March and April. They didn't bother us too much at Magic after the first 20 minutes did they?

I never mentioned Crosby. I think you understand the point that I was making about Mossop. He alone of all of our props I would excuse because of his injury problems over the last three years.

I'll never forget him coming back on at Wembley when his shoulder was busted. Credit in the bank I'd say. (It won't last forever, but an injury free season has to be top priority for Lee, then he can kick on with confidence).

Already in this thread people are criticising MMc. I tend to cut players plenty of slack if they've performed for us in the past, and by that I mean in GFs and CCFs. So if Lockers, Matty, MMc and Mossop are going through poor form, we live with it, in the knowledge that they've done it all before and will do so again.

I can and do cut players slack for loss of form or mistakes they make during a game what I can't do is excuse lack of effort.
I genuinely do not like slating any player but our props most notably Mossop and Crosby and to a lesser degree Flower have been lamentable in attack and defence throughout this season.
I haven't been this angry since the days of Moran and I think what is really winding me up is that SW actually allows this lack of effort or lack of conditioning to continue.

I have on this thread and others mentioned what appears to be a total lack of conditioning presently within our props at the club maybe I should raise a separate thread on this subject. Call me an owd fart but personally if any player isn't capable of playing 80 minutes then he ain't fit full stop. You can tell me how the game has changed and how it is more physically demanding blah blah blah but you can't tell me that Roby, Peacock and Graham are supermen because they play or in the case of Peacock have played for 80 on a regular basis.
Personally I would not allow a player back on once he has been substituted. What we have now is a game full of lookalike robots who can bench press a London bus but are blowing out of their after 5 minutes. I may have had my epiphany on Friday night on the overall standard of the quality or lack of quality in our forwards.
Ooh I think I need to go and lye down in a darkened room

Just on Maguire, its not as if he decided that playing without props is the way for all teams. The Rabbitohs last year had power right across the pack, with George and Sam Burgess key attacking weapons. They're not exactly lightweight this year either.

I'd say Maguire is probably very good at adjusting his gameplan to match his players - something a lot of coaches fail to achieve.

Also, its a bit rich calling Mossop an NRL player. His experience there amounted to very little before he got injured didn't it?

Three appearances in the NRL I think it is

Think you have a problem of size in the wigan pack though and the relation between fitness and bulk. We are playing too many 'smaller' players in powerful positions. we have and will continue to struggle in big games with the pairing of Farrell and bateman for example.

to the poster who mentioned making clubb fitter till he could play 70mins - you will likely then see him lose his effectiveness as the guy was a 13/centre before we bulked him up.

He'd bulked up prior to come here but I agree he's got bigger. I also agree its a fine balancing act between size and effectiveness but we need to work as hard as possible to ensure our best props are able to play longer minutes 'when required'. If a guy like Clubb is smashing it up I'd want to keep him on longer.

How they manage to get to that level I've not a clue but as a simple fan I see other props manage it so wonder why ours can't. I believe it's actually more a case of not being allowed to play longer minutes then not being able to.

I agree, I keep reading that our pack is too small but I think it is the case they're just not being used effectively enough. Wane is slipping into Noble era-style subbing-by-the-clock and it isn't working. The starting front row end up off the field for a very long time and this, coupled with the amount of work our backs do getting us out of our own half, leads to some shocking stats from our props.

It doesn't need a massive overhaul to fix up. I've no problem with rotating forwards to keep them fresh, but I don't like seeing McIlorum, Crosby, Mossop, Flower sat down for 40 minutes at a time, which has happened in recent weeks, while he's probably done the opposite with Tautai and Patrick and left them on too long at times. We have also been guilty of overplaying with the props often getting involved in shift plays rather than just taking the ball in, a bit more patience when we've got the ball would solve a lot of our current problems IMO.

The time to judge the pack will be when Clubb comes back in and Gelling /Thornley return, allowing Joel Tomkins to revert to second row. Both Farrell and Bateman are very good players, but with both in the second row it leaves the pack a little lightweight.

Our second rowers are not the issue!

Time to judge will be at the end of the season ! A few twists and turns yet.

I'm pretty confident that when the crunch comes we'll turn up and give winning the comp a real dig.

There are some issues to iron out without doubt but there's so much talent in this side. When we get it right we're an exceptionally tough team to beat.

Hopefully it's all part of the masterplan, have the props do next to bugger all during the regular season so they're fresh as daisies for the Super 8's

We are, and I'm optimistic that we'll start getting it right on a more consistent basis - but even Ian Lenagan admits that the club doesn't really know the cause of our inconsistency, which is more than a little worrying.

It's not that much of a stretch to suggest this is happening. remember 2013?

2013 carries
flower 313
mossop 265
taylor 250
crosby 240

peacock 613
hill 430
lynch 397
LMS 341
Crabtree 445

come to the playoffs our forwards dominated!

Piss poor if it is, and if so i shall be cancelling my sky sports package and season ticket

I wrote this half in jest, half in despair after one of those awful performances we'd been churning out, maybe there was something in it after all

So what about the challenge cup?

I thought he played as well yesterday as he has in a while. Certainly offered more go forward than he often does.

Interesting and honest comments from the man himself about his form here www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-7459042

Interesting and honest comments from the man himself about his form here www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-7459042

I'm really pleased for Lee that he seems to be getting his form back. I posted earlier on this season that his injury hit time in Australia would take some getting over and I think that's how it has proved. He was excellent on Friday. (By the way, I wouldn't mind Liam Watts at Wigan - a link up with Scott Taylor suggests Hull may have a very strong pack next season when you add in Houghton, Minichiello, Pritchard, Manu and with Ellis and Westerman to return).