After crying themselves to sleep

We can all laugh at Saints' plight, but that red card never was.

It's all part of an incremental creep towards our collapse as genuine form of entertainment (and unlike RU, we don't have an over-hyped, over-promoted international programme to fall back on).

And before anyone quotes the lawsuit factor at me, that changes nothing about the question now facing us. Do you want to introduce your grandkids to the version of RL that so captured our imaginations when we were young, or do you want it to be tick and pass?

He’s jumped off the floor and hit his head though. If he doesn’t jump I’d be happy to give it a yellow at worst. Saints have a reckless attitude to defence, people like Knowles and Percival have been lucky they’ve not significantly injured players. I’d like us to explore somehow making the game as it is null and void so we can renegotiate contacts with more favourable rules about accepting some liability for the risks they have playing the game. I don’t think we can get the game back to where it should be otherwise.

There was absolutely no attempt from Makinson to bend his back and avoid head contact.

Cannot agree.

I don’t think there was intent but he was very reckless and had no control.

It was a very dumb play born out of clear frustration by TM, nailed on red card injury or not.

You simply cannot go into tackles recklessly and not attempting to bend your back and not expect to be punished if you make direct contact with the head.

It's only one of many highly questionable red cards this season. That's the bigger picture I'm talking about. It's literally destroying the game.

There has indeed been many questionable red cards this season. This, however, was not one of them.

If your arguing against the current rules, that's a whole other debate but to say this was never a red card is plain daft. He had both feet off the ground, was bolt upright and made direct contact with the head. End of discussion really.

That was absolutely shambolic from Saints, I honestly cannot remember a worse performance from them. Irrespective of how well or not they are coached the players should hold their heads in shame as their effort was totally unacceptable.

It was fun to watch though

It was wasn't it,after the years of 3peat/4peat etc etc,after the ridiculous notion that they can dominate for 10yrs,after the great comments that not one or maybe just Faz would get into their team (faz as a sub),after the envyo'meter that some numpty put up,so all we get now is injuries,injuries,injuries ALL teams get injuries it is upto the management to control this.

We know they will turn it around sooner or later as they are a great team/club but we didnt get any sympathy when we have struggled in the past so tough sh*t and just get on with it.

No way was that a deliberate head shot. He wrapped his arms round the guy's body. The fact his feet left the ground is laughably irrelevant. How many tacklers leave the ground when they're trying to bring down an opponent? Probably fifty per cent of them. It signifies nothing other than determined effort.

We have to ask ourselves where all this is going to end. They've pulled back on next year's extra level of 'player protection' because they've realised it would make the game unplayable. But for how long?

Many, many years ago, before all this was a conversation piece, I took my son to hospital after a Saturday afternoon match, because he'd sustained a nasty ankle injury. The Casualty doctor was quite sniffy with us, as if we'd got what we deserved, and in the end, couldn't resist saying: 'If I had my way, rugby would be abolished tomorrow.'

That's the mentality behind all this. We shouldn't just be okay with it.

Some of Saints senior players need to have a look in the mirror, those young lads were hung out to dry yesterday.

Hull KR were outstanding, their biggest issue is that GF isn’t next week, as I don’t think anyone is beating them currently on this form. 7 weeks is a long time in sport, for everyone (including Saints!) to build for Old Trafford.

Just to add to this,my daughter dislocated her elbow and had to go to hospital to have it put back,this happened when she was training on the trampoline,the surgeon said that trampolining cause more injuries to kids than any most other sports and he would ban that.The point is that doctors/surgeons etc would ban any sport they deem unsafe.There is only so far you can make a sport safer after that th sport becomes unrecognisable to what it started out as.

Mate, with all due respect, that's utter nonsense. 50% of tacklers do not leave the ground with both feet! You're just making things up. Of the small minority of tackles where the player's feet do leave the ground, only the ones that make direct contact with the head are punished. If Makinson hadn't made contact with the head, he wouldn't have been punished either. Unfortunately for him, he quite clearly did. You say he tried to wrap his arms. You mean like Byrne on Good Friday? Remind me what happened there?

It was a straight red. Absolutely no doubt whatsoever about it.

The rest of your post is an entirely different discussion.

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Correct

The rugby barometer will tell us how good they are in a fortnight when they come to Wigan.

Let's not start pretending that whether or not a player's feet leave the ground is now some kind of criterion for a red card. Please, let's nip this imaginary problem in the bud before it becomes another millstone round the game's neck.

I you are out of control both feet off the floor and make direct contact with the head when the opponent hasn’t lowered his head or dropped height at speed it has to be red.

As far as I know any reckless contact with the head has always been red, difference in this case from others was perhaps the intention to do damage….which I don’t think there was in this case.

I do though think the tackle was made out of pure frustration and if Saints are not getting pumped I don’t personally think TM performs the tackle in the same way.

It is if he's bolt upright and makes direct contact with the head as it means there's no attempt to keep the tackle low! I can only imagine you're being deliberately obtuse if you can't see a player jumping into a tackle is more likely to lead to a high tackle. Or do you think a defender who lowers his tackle height by bending his back is equally likely to hit the attacker high?

Come on mate, use a bit of sense. I understand you don't like the rule but trying to argue that an upright player with both feet off the ground isn't higher than an upright player with both feet on the ground is bordering on the delusional.

There's nothing delusional in being worried about the way the game is going.

If you're absolutely 100% okay that any contact with the head should be classifiable as a head-shot and merit some kind of card, then fine. I personally think it'll ruin the game I grew up loving (in fact, I think it already is - fans pay good money to watch stars on the pitch, not sitting in the stand, suffering draconian punishments for 'offences' which in a contact sport are commonplace and often accidental). But each to their own. At least you're in synch with the current powers-that-be.

No doubt you'll want the final word. Fine. have it. I've said what I think and am done with it.

Woah! This is a completely different discussion to "it was never a red card" or whether being off the ground makes a high shot more likely. Whether you like the fact that it is a red card or not is irrelevant. I said previously that I understand that you don't. I can't say I'm keen myself but understand the thinking behind the new rules (if not always the interpretation).

Just to clarify my posts. You said it was never a red card. I said it was. That's the entirety of the debate as far as I'm concerned. If you want to discuss whether the rules are good for the game, necessary or anything else I'm more than happy to chat about that too but that's nothing to do with my posts on the subject to date.

As it stands by the rules it was a red and Tommy prob will get a 2 match ban to clarify it.
We may not like the way the game is going sometimes but these are the rules at the min.

There was probably more damage long term at our game yesterday with two accidental head clashes caused by their own team mate than most red & yellow offences this season. Both looked awful (especially the Hull FC one in slow motion with a head to the bridge of his nose).

and there'll be no sanctions fines suspensions because 4 defenders crashed into each other, accidents happen in a contact sport, this afternoon a defender will probably get a ban because they accidentally made contact with an attackers head, makes no sense.

I didn't really like the red card and thought it was a bit silly (Tommy went front on with his chest, wrapped his arms etc and the ref just decided to stop the game himself for no reason despite May wanting to play on) however, with the rules the way they are at the minute, I understood that it's technically correct.

Being banned for 3 games for it though is disgrace. Cannot ing stand the MRP, they are ruining the game completely