Unfortunately, I have to agree with FTV on this one. This thread was clearly made to highlight our perceived inability to win both trophies on offer this year, despite having one of the easiest routes to the trophy for many a year (240 points scored compared to 28 conceded in our cup run tells its own story).



This Wigan team is good enough, and I don't think we'll get an easier chance to do it for a long long time, but on current form, they're not convincing very many people at all. I too hope that I am vastly wrong.

Are you sure about that Jim? Unless a player has told you that personally I'm not sure how you could know that until we see their attitude on Thursday night.

The double is very very hard under current circumstances. Warrington have come closest so far last year.

In 2006 saints had a pretty easy final against huddersfield who at the time were in the lower half of a 12 team league. They then only had to win 1 game to get to old trafford and had a week off either side. So it was staked in their favour.

Now the playoff format is more difficult to negotiate.

Despite wigans poor form they still have a chance. If they win on thurs they are one game away so must fancy the chances in that situation.

If they lose, they just have to beat hullkr/saints at home. Certainly not a foregone conclusion but if wigan can up their intensity they should have it in their locker. They are then just 80 minutes away from old trafford, against a hudds team that IMO could be jittery whereas wigan will be battle hardened and fresh off a nice derby win.

The final itself is another story, but wigan should be able to make old trafford. The question is will they play leeds or warrington.

I reckon we'll end up playing Huddersfield in week 3 regardless of what happens on Thursday, and I reckon we'll find it in us to turn them over. However, I just can't see us coming up with the goods against Wire or Leeds in the final. Wire have had the better of us since '06 and Leeds are so used to turning up and winning at Old Trafford every year. Thursday will be a big indicator of whether Wane can sort out our attack in time, Huddersfield are a very good defensive side and if we can get over for 4 or 5 tries against them we can against anybody.

When we won the Challenge Cup in 2010, the defeated team (Leeds) went on to win the Grand Final, I think that they didn't lose a game again after the final all season, if a beaten finalist can do it, why not the winning team ?

Only last season the same two teams played out the CCF and GF.

It's far from impossible.

My point exactly, winning one trophy should give you the confidence to go on and win the other, injuries to major players is the key, at present we have one main casualty, if we are lucky enough to keep the rest of the squad healthy (as healthy as they can be at this time of year), we should be able to compete with the best.

We won't win the Grand Final because we're not good enough to beat the top sides, especially when it matters. Nothing to do with winning the Cup.

So how did we win the cup? They were all in it.

I know we had a very easy route and that is IMO the main reason why we did. I am not suggesting we were any more likely to beat the top sides in a CC final than we are to win a GF.

What I [iam[/i suggesting is luck can play a part in winning the GF almost as much as the CC. It's why the play-offs just like the CC don't tell you who the best team over the year is.

Under the old top 5 system I reckon we'd have no chance as we'd have to beat all the sides above us.

Under this system we will avoid playing one of the sides above us completely (if we progress) and even if we lose v Hudds our next game is against a side lower down in the league.

It's easier to get to a semi-final from 4th in this system than the top 5. So despite poor form and with luck such as Hudds getting nervous we could find ourselves in a semi final.

By rights based on form I don't reckon we have any right to expect that but that is the system we have.

It's a lot easier to win the GF from lower down the league in a top 8 format than it is a a top 5 or top 6

Quite true. The 7th or 8th placed finishers would literally have no chance of winning it.

Well if you want to say that consider the 5th placed side who would have also been in the old top 5. They get a home game v 8th under the top eight compared to away at 4th under the top 5. Both sudden death but the top 8 gives them an advantage compared to the top 5.

They are also going to have an easier round 1 game than the top four opponent who they will face the week after will have done. It's nuts.

Whats quite amazing is that i have not spoken to anyone who agrees to this top 8 system, myself included.

But havent the NRL adopted "our" top 8 play off system and they seem to embrace it with the crowds increasing in size.

Yes that's true, they've adopted our and think its preferable to the old top 8. Most Aussies want to revert back to a top 5 if you asked them. They only changed the top 8 format cos Auckland got to the GF from 6th the other year. If they're not happy with a team from 6th getting to a GF then why have 6 teams are more in it?!

What you seem to misunderstand, is that British RL fans will never, EVER be happy, or satisfied with the product. Instead of embracing it, they focus on the negatives, bemoan it and cause the chopping and changing every few seasons that leads to inconsistency & confusion for both non RL fans and Casual fans.

You honestly think the fans cause the changes? You have got to be joking. The RFL does not jump to the fans tune.

The reason for the chopping and changing is down to The Fat Controllers inability to leave things alone.

Who do you think dreamt up clubcall? The most pointless gimmick in the whole set up.

I'd also say the fans don't like the current playoff system simply because it's demonstrably cr @p and the majority seem to favour the top 5 so it's not criticism for the sake of it without suggesting a better alternative.

You don't think fan opinion has an effect on the decisions made about the sport?

I would prefer a top of 8 of straight knock out matches.

Hudds vs HKR
Wire v Catalans
Leeds v Hull
Wigan v Stains

Winners progress to the next round, with the highest placed team against the lowest league position available. In theory and going off league positions Hudds should beat HKR but if HKR win and Wire win then the next round match would be Wire v HKR.

Although still flawed, it is better than the current system IMO. Also with a top 5 currently most teams season would be over with by June. I am not a fan of the top 5 as I dont like it when teams get a weeks rest. IMO it is not always a benefit as it is around 50/50 whether they progress or not.

At club level, yes, but not at RFL level. I can't think of any major innovations that were fan-driven, and very few that fans are in favour of. From what I see, the only bodies with any effect on decision-making are SKY, the RFL themselves, and the club chairmen.

Not in determining such major changes to the play off formats no. Why, do you?

Are we going to get to pick which format for the league and/or play offs we will have in 2015? Where do I sign up to vote?

I believe fan opinion is one of the major reasons why the changes to the playoffs and/or league structure were set in motion. Obviously other factors are involved, but to deny that the opinion of the fans, and reception to certain ideas has no affect on future decisions is just silly. That's not to say that the RFL change everything on the whim of the fans, but, it is surely a contributing factor.

99.99% if RL fans did not want playoffs to be brought in at all in 1998 and the RFL didn't listen then.

With top 5 playoffs and relegation in a 12 team league, most clubs will have something to play for with at least a couple of games to go.

Of course you can win both, its the biggest myth in RL that you cant.

And we have a much better chance of the double than any of our rivals...

As far as I'm aware, fans were not consulted in either case - if they were I haven't seen any survey results quoted.

If you just mean fans' general dissatisfaction with the status quo, then yeah, in the sense that "something needs to be done", but as far as the actual (or proposed) changes go I've seen/heard few fans in favour. regarding the playoffs, most comments seem to favour a top 5 system; and this 12x2 > 8x3 idea is pretty much universally derided from what I've seen and heard, by fans and players alike.