I think you will find Leeds will have to win everything until (and including) 2011 to catch up with our trophy haul for the SL era.

you anywhere near Wigan yet ?

nearer than you or anyone else for that matter sunshine

I bet you love waking up and thinking 'i love supporting the 2nd best team in SL

Yet i brag that we are worlds best hoping no one looks at the record books.


I just might go on the Swinton site later and brag how much better Warrington are compared to them'

Why? Wellens and Roby in the past ten years is nothing to crow about.

If we'd produced Wellens, Graham, Roby, Stankevich, Bennett, Edmondson, Clough and so on in the last decade, we'd be crowing about it big time.

The way some of our fans wet themselves with excitement about the likes of Pickersgill and Riley 'rising through the ranks' we'd probably be adding Jonkers, Stewart, Moore, Hardman and Bracek to that list as well.

If we are talking real quality, all we've produced is Paul Wood.

I'd rather copy Leeds formula of the two.

Leeds success of the last five years has been built around the youth system, even at times being able to almost deliver them a new team complete with a new set of pivots (Sinfield, Diskin, McGuire, Burrow, Mathers) and they are reaping the rewards of this now. Similirly to ourselves, I think Leeds had a time, when they identified that their youth system was inept, they addressed it, started again and then had to wait for the sort of 'acorns to grow' if you will. I think we all acknowledge that up until what, 5 years ago ? Our junior set up was shambolic, then the introduction of squadbuilder et al was the first steps to putting this right, then service areas and whatnot, and now the tip of the iceberg being Bastian & his merry men providing arguably the best junior set up in RL, put it this way there's nobody i'd rather have, ie, It couldn't be in safer hands.

We've just got to wait, we've had a few through the system in recent years, time will tell if they are good enough, early indications are that Harrison, Mitchell, Riley, Penny, Cooper and less so Pickersgill, Blythe, McCarthy all have futures, some hopefully big futures. These aren't really products of the 'Bastian era', his efforts will probably come to fruition 2012 onwards you'd think (at the earliest).

You look at SL, how many players kicking about that went through Leeds, and you realise how many players their systems picked up, your Dowes, Scruton, Murrell, Raynor, Calderwood and such. You add that to what they've got now, and I bet they could almost field, if not field a 'youth produced 17' that would be a match for anyone.

I guess Saints have produced 'quality wise' more than us, ie, Roby, Graham, Wellens being the stand outs, and now it looks as if they've got another crop which similarly to ours, wime will tell, but there's certainly promise there, I just think Leeds are what everyone should aim to be, youth wise. (Or maybe they were, no we've got who they had.

)

Graham and Clough arent bad either, as are Wilkin and Gardner who although have come from other clubs have done so well before they werre established players. I'd say we deserve some credit for their progression, if they were at Wire they would have been hounded out of the club early doors for not being ace in their first season.

I also note with interest the way you select your date so we cant include Cunnngham. He still plays for us, and is local produced so add that to the list too.

You of all people know of our total disregard for the youth set-up up until five years ago.

The term quality was used, that is applicable to Wellens, Graham and Roby. The rest are squad fillers or unproven youngsters. The three listed have gone on to become regular internationals.

I did forget Graham, my error. Include Cunningham? We will lay claim to Sculthorpe and Harris then!

Taking players who are first teamers from other clubs hardly qualifies as youth development does it!

Clough is a great prospect, but he is exactly that, a prospect.

So apply that to the Leeds side as well then. I agree that their youth is impressive but the likes of Watkins, Worral and Gibson are exactly just that. No different to us including Clough, Eastmond or Wheeler.

I'd only include Watkins if I am totally honest.

missing the key point that Cunningham is still playing for us. He is therefore a 1st teamer that we have developed.



If thats your opinion then so be it. Its somewhat foolish though to suggest that we havent developed Wilkin and Gardner.



Likewise many of the Leeds crew that you banging on about are the same.

You'll have to enlighten me on this.

I know about the Scholarship scheme which was set up with William Beamont School in 1999, which meant that kids just going into secondary school like Cooper and Mitchell were given a supervised rugby education along with their schooling.

I know about us re-establishing our Academy team in the late 1990s, making the Academy Grand Final in 1999 and also having the GB Academy captain that year in the series against Aussie Schoolboys (Paul Noone).

I know about us bringing through a GB squad player in Paul Wood plus an NRL player in Ian Sibbit.

I joined Squadbuilder when it started in 2002 and was aware of the work going on with Pickersgill, Hulse and co to bring them into the first team.

So you'll have to fill me in on the great changes since 2004 which ended the total disregard for the youth set up.

Now Gleeson has Gone, watch this space

where do these stupid rumors come from

Stupid People

Post 1999, we did feck all until about 2004 with the Academy set-up being restarted year upon year even the Championship side of 2004 was picked off by other clubs as we still weren't that great at retaining players.

Will that suffice for you?

saintc, buying in first teamers is not developing youth, no matter what spin you put on it.

I knew a few lads that were on the service area/scholarship about two or three years ago, and they said then it was rubbish. I mean, we lost out on Mellor and Watkins pretty much down to quality of facilities and coaching I'd imagine, as surely we could have matched Leeds and Wigan financially with ease.

From what I've been told, our academy has improved tenfold, and we've already started picking up some fine young talent from out of town. Not sure if you're allowed to speak of such ages on here, but there's a young lad from Oldham I think in the U-14's, a hooker, who I hear is one of the best at his age.

It all bodes well for the future, hopefully we can keep them, which looks likely after we beat many teams to the signings of some of the young lads during the winter, so hopefully we can produce 'em and keep 'em!

Usually about 2 new junior players get promoted every year, Pickersgill and Riley came into the first team from that Academy Championship side, plus Harrison who had come in from Barrow, Penny and Cooper came through next. We retained all these players, the ones who were 'picked off by other clubs' as you say were ones who weren't going to make it with us, I'm not sure which players were better than the ones we kept.

But saying "we did feck all"....didn't we bring through two junior Grand Final winning teams in that time, and run strong service area teams....? Its a ridiculous statement to say the club had 'total disregard' for the junior set up, a lot of good work was being done in this period.



Taking teenagers from the National Leagues and progressing them into international players is an impressive achievement.

Why try to demean Saints achievements both on bringing through players through their own academy set up, and finding fresh young talent in the lower leagues and helping it to progress? At the moment the only other club who is up there with Saints on that front is Leeds - if there were 14 SL clubs doing the same and producing talent at the same rate then we would be giving the Aussies a much tougher run for their money. We should be looking at this as a model for ourselves not trying to rubbish it.

I am sure if you asked John Bastian and Tony Smith what their views are on Saints record of junior development they would both say it was outstanding and was the type of thing they are aiming for at Warrington. If we produce a Wellens, Roby and Graham in the next decade that will do for me.

Have I missed these Academy Championship teams somewhere along the line?

I know we won the second division not long back at Academy level but that was only because we failed to qualify for the top division at Academy level. Surely that tells you all you need to know about our Academy set-up not long ago.

Do the players picked off by Saints come under the 'not good enough for us' term?

Who is trying to rubbish picking up talent from the lower leagues? Getting young players who are established first teamers regardless of their level is not in the slightest bit comparable to identifying juniors, then bringning them through the Academy set up. The scouting and identifying of the talent has lready been done.

Herb, it was me who referred to the Academy Championship, it was the First Division, which we won in 2003 and 2004 as you said, we didn't make the cut for the Championship, though I can't remember why.

A simple review of history will tell you all we need to know about our Academy sety-up. Sculthorpe, Harris and Roper made their debuts in the mid-90's, it is only in the past couple of years we have started to integrate players from the junior set-up who look like they can hold their own.

PS

I'm pretty sure Cullen mentioned on more than one occasion how the whole junior set-up had been left to drift and was an area he was looking to re-establish.

Depends, who are they? are they better than Riley, Cooper, Penny etc? What are they doing for Saints - are they still at Saints?



Dave Highton - debut 1998, 88 SL games
Ian Sibbit - debut 1999, 106 SL games, 20 NRL games
Paul Wood - debut 2000, 182 SL games
Paul Noone - debut 2000, 128 SL games
Mark Gleeson - debut 2000, 141 SL games
Gary Hulse - debut 2001, 65 SL games



I'm sure thats true of the financial hard times but work has gone into re-establishing it over a long time. Its a convenient populist opinion that "the club didn't care about juniors" but its usually expressed by people who had no involvement or understanding of what was being done.

One player I would deem good enough to be proud of the fact he came through our Academy set-up. The fact Gary Hulse played so many games is an indictment of the situation.

If the 'populist' view about the club not caring about juniors is a misunderstood one, why did the club let Jimmy Reader go?

Again watch this space