More like a reminder of the current squad's own shortcomings. Briers has had to work with a succession of guys like Gidley, Austin and Widdop, who were stars in the NRL and they don't come close to being able to do the stuff he could to break open a defence, something he must have privately noted.

These theories on coaches are cyclical anyway. When the next Aussie coach comes in, and clears out Briers and fills it with his own Aussie pals, we'll start hearing a theory that the problem is the "Wire culture" has gone from the club, and people will be saying we need to bring in players who have worn the jersey and know what it means....get Michael Monaghan/Brett Hodgson as coach they will say, bring back Cullen as Director of Rugby (that one will probably come from rubber duckie).

Then we'll hear a theory that we need to have someone with experience winning things, and Sean O'Loughlin will take over as coach, and people won't like him either.

I think we had that with Morley, but weren’t able to replace him as a player or leader

According to the club website we have two assistant coaches Briers and Henderson, so how can one be singled out from the other without know which areas they are assisting in. The youth appear to be coming through doesnt Briers have a lot of input with them?

What's the 'Wire culture' though?.... Loss, failure and the feeling of constant disappointment?

Is it just me, or is 'Wire culture' the actual problem here?

I blame Price for poor forward bench selection
Can Briers play prop?

If you're going to win 3 or 4 titles you need more than just one of those type of players.
Peacock had Sinfield, McGuire, Burrow, JJB around him; Sculthorpe had Cunningham, Long, Wellens, Joynt in the early days.

Wire don't really have anyone like that. Chris Hill has the fire and passion but overheats sometimes and players like that need a Morley/Peacock figure to keep them together.

Other than that, our senior players seem more introverted personalities.

Daryl Clark is a great player, but if we're relying on him as our leadership group then it would be like Saints if they hadn't had those players I mentioned above and were reliant on Roby as the leader.

Ratchford is the other leading player in the team. My gripe with Ratchford on that thread about "best ever Wire SL signing" was when we have our dud games, what does Ratchford do to turn things around. Can anyone remember games where he's taken charge of the team and pulled us out of a hole? Or is he just a good player, who is on the field being a good player whether we win or lose, so everyone respects his ability but he doesn't dictate games or change a losing situation?

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater like people do with blaming Briers, and conclude that we've never won a GF with long serving senior players like Clark/Ratchford/Hill so getting rid of those guys would win us a GF. The issue is the absence of the group of leadership greats alongside them.

Those three would have all been good enough for the dominant Leeds/Saints teams of the past, as would Charnley and probably Cooper. Austin and Lineham would have been squad players, Ashton and King would have been given a shot as younger talents. If you put them in a team with those 4/5 leadership greats from Leeds or from Saints then it would be a team that would win multiple titles.

We're quite a long way off that as we don't really have any. The competition in general is not as strong now as it was then, so perhaps with only a couple of those type of players we would be able to get over the line, but we do need them.

I’m not sure there is much in this “Club culture” idea. The culture is set by the current coach and players. Look at t he self styled “entertainers”. Dog dirt under Cunningham, played well for Holbrook, reverting to negativity under Woolfe.
Coach and players need to take responsibility. The fact that we haven’t won the Championship since Julius Caesar was a young lad should have no bearing on anything happening on the pitch in the present.

My reply is simple. When the pack is weak, it matters zero how highly rated the halfback is.
Johns earned us tabloid inches for his appearance and a bit fat nothing in the cabinet, Patton steered us on to beat the untouchables and won a CC.

Have a day off, duckie.
Your double use of hyperbole in one single sentence does you no favours
We won the CC DESPITE Patton, and to class last season's Saints side as "untouchables", I'd say you've broken into miaw's house, and drunk his supply of Harvey's Bristol Cream.

The Mersey, Manchester Ship Canal and Bridgewater Canal will be on flood alert, when Patton eventually leaves, such will be the amount of tears you'll shed

RD has now gone full on Oozlum bird.

Thank-you for the concern, but I keep the Harvey's under lock and key in my bedside cabinet. I moved it there during the Anderson/Plange era when I kept waking up with the night terrors.

RD clearly has been at the Mr Muscle drain cleaner though or something similar. External use only old chap. His misplaced loyalty reminds me of a friend of mine who had a baffling fondness for Gary Tees. And frankly, if Patton is a SL quality half then Tees was 1982 Kangaroo material.

A pencil up each nostril, and his underpants on his head, a la Cpt. Blackadder.

WIBBLE

Surely the days of taking anything Duckie says remotely seriously ended the other week, when he stated that this present Wire squad is the best he has ever witnessed?

That was the moment when the white coated men should have put the clamps on his taxi and wheeled him away for his own safeguarding.

We had Morley amongst others. Some poor decision making on the day has cost us a couple of GF wins. That's just the way it goes when were down to fine margins in some big games.

The issue with Sita for me wasn`t his initial recruitment.

It was the fact that his contract was extended while already demonstrating that he can`t do the minutes on the field required for a Super League prop ..............

In the interest of fairness, i do agree, about giving him an extension, it was probably wrong, however for the most part of this year he has been better, pre lockdown he was doing more minutes and keeping his performance up (ooer) and was a good tandem with philbs.

Since his alleged falling out with pricey around the covid fortnight, its all gone a bit pete tong again.

However, i do agree that if we'd not extended him, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Bit harsh with regards to 2013. That was sheer bad luck.

How often does a side lose 2 backs to bad injury in the same match, especially one who is your prime threat to the opposition tryline?

Almost inevitable that something that happens so infrequently should happen to us in the biggest game of the season.

Yes, Duckie will fetch up having the wrong bench and there is an argument for planning for every eventuality, but losing Monaghan and Ratchford like we did absolutely killed us - If that hadn't happened, we would likely have racked up a GF record winning margin.

I don't think that any "luck" was involved at all

2012. Beaten by a :battle hardened Leeds team. No disgrace

2013. I'm sorry. We bottled a 16 - 2 lead. We should've been able to cope with the loss of a winger (a very potent one, I grant you, but he wasn't vital). When Monaghan went off, our players were just staring into the air. Ratboy Tomkins was busy cajoling/bollocking his team mates. They scored off the next set By the time Ratchford went off, he were rabbits in the headlights, and the game was as good as over. Fuming.

2016 and 2018 Wane masterclasses.

Agreed, me neither. I think our bench influenced opposition tactics. The cannonball on ratchford was appalling.

Have to disagree.

Don't have any problem with the 2012, 16 or 18 defeats. All 3 beaten by the better side on the day.

2013 was the Wane masterclass. It was the masterclass that involves physically imposing yourselves on the opposition by any means and not all legal.

The Ratchford 'injury' probably highlights the difference between us and sides with a winning mentality. Win at all costs and bend the rules when the chips are down, that was one of the best examples of rule stretching since Murphy got stretchered off at Wembley.

That wasn’t rule bending, it was a deliberate inflicting of injury on an opponent. I can accept sneaking a few feet to bei offside and would probably resort to such tactics myself. However I could never accept deliberately injuring an opponent so that I could win, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself. (I will confess to shouting “take his head off” at matches when I was a lot younger though).

I felt 2013 we lacked a mental toughness to batten down the hatches and see out the game was and still is a major issue.

We have no serial winners in our side we have good players and some very good players. Leeds had a pay structure that ment they could afford more better players and as a result they generally got the right players. They could pay a bit less because they offered a very good chance of grand final success...the type of player that silverware and success are just as important as the paychecks.

We are missing leaders and game breakers but I think they often have the attributes of what's described above. Someone that players look to for a bit of magic or when things are going tough. Nobody in our team seems capable of breaking momentum the wigan game once they got on top in the second half we had nobody who could stop them a few big hits a brake somthing to regain a foothold in the game.

When needed, in his pomp Moz was a game changer. Imaging the thoughts of the defensive line when seeing Moz steaming in their direction. I do not condone dirty play necessarily but I do suggest that to be able to intimidate the opposition is a strength. Coops and Hilly are terrific players but you don't see fear in the opposition eyes when they are marching forward. For me, BMM is a player that any opposition player will not enjoy facing. Apart from that Sita seems to have potential but his contribution to games is nowhere good enough and it will be no surprise to most if he were to leave at the end of the season. We need a bit of mungrel from somewhere.

You seem to have completely missed the point. I’ve no crusade for Patton.
Which is about the pack and/or pack selection. I’ll put your granny at 7 if we can get Taylor and Watts along with Hill and Cooper.
However the facts about Patton are there. I would recon Patton is only successful halfback, playing in the halves in the last 8 years....And on a fraction of the money of all the marquees.