I've recently commented on a topic on another forum regarding the number of Amateur/Community players playing the game (at Open Age level) and the number of teams that are playing the game. Take for example, the amateur game in Widnes, where a few years ago, the 'Widnes Cup' was entered by as many as 8 teams from the town. Now, the local competition is struggling to attract 4 teams, and those teams are struggling to find players.

Anyway, there are numerous reasons why teams are struggling to field teams and why players are no longer playing the game, but I'm involved right at the start, at U7s level (School Year 2) and it's quite interesting to see that in a 'Rugby town' such as Widnes, there are only 3 clubs that are able to field U7's teams, namely West Bank Bears, Halton Farnworth Hornets and Widnes Moorfield.

I'm coaching one of those sides myself and we only have 11 players that are Year 2 (lucky, because we only play 9 a side) and I know that the other two teams only have similar numbers, totaling about 35 x Year 2 players in the whole of the town.

Now, I appreciate that at that age, they are still pretty young, but all the same, I still think it's a pretty startling statistic.

We are of course, looking to get more kids involved in the game and I'd be interested to hear peoples opinions on why the numbers are so low, and whether in your town the numbers are similar, and of course any solutions that you may have to increase the involvement.

Playing numbers and drop out levels are a major concern and if we don't get numbers into the game we lose a hell of a lot of funding, hence why the RTL are bigging up Touch rugby.

I can understand you frustration as I see a lot of teams over in the Hull area that struggle for numbers, a lot blame it on the move to summer rugby but I can't see how kids in the mini mod would enjoy or cope in winter seasons. The other problem is certain people will only take their kids to 'fashionable clubs' and even at a very young age I've known people go to certain teams as they think little jonny will have more chance of being the next big thing because of who they play for.

Also a lot of competition with football, rugby union and now boxing , if you have kids at multiple ages with varied interests or even the same but there training and playing days differ then it's a hard task for parents to manage and afford.

The RFL are trying new schemes and the Primary RL is the current flavour of the moment , but will this be the key to success? A fair bit of opposition to it as things stand, a lot of coaches don't believe in the non contact formats so I don't know how thus will fair and if it will increase participation.

I was part of running a new club in West Yorkshire - we inherited one age group and had big plans to add more; but we couldn't attract coaches, administrators or players in sufficient numbers, despite trying a number of avenues. I was surprised how many schools were utterly disinterested (with the exception of one) and the lack of help from our Junior League and local professional club was notable; until the players reached U14, when the academy coaches came knocking.

For me, the youth and community game is propped up on the goodwill and dedication of a few volunteers, with funding (through what is nominally called sponsorship) from local businesses, usually with some connection to a player or parent at the club; furthermore, some of those volunteers, however well meaning, do more harm than good and that, together with the mostly unchecked foul and aggressive behaviour that is the norm on the touchlines of most junior games I've been involved in, make running a community club a not very edifying experience.

For me, there needs to be a massive rethink of how the community game is administered and managed; coaching needs to be standardised and overseen more robustly, on and off-field conduct needs to be taken more seriously, clubs need to be supported to fund and run themselves properly, and if at all possible, parents should be banned from the touchline on match days.

I've had some involvement with junior RL in Leeds & the Leeds Foundation. They reach out and help all the clubs in the Leeds area, from coaching (Brian Mac holds masterclasses etc), to fundraising, events & touchline manager courses. See more here: www.leedsrugbyfoundation.org/ I'm not sure how this compares to other foundations, but it's helped our club massively over the past year or so. With regard to playing numbers, the Foundation have recently been running an initative to get as many clubs running an U8's (I think it was that age group) as possible. I'm sure in 2013 there were just 3 clubs and this year it had gone up to around 7.

I've had some involvement with junior RL in Leeds & the Leeds Foundation. They reach out and help all the clubs in the Leeds area, from coaching (Brian Mac holds masterclasses etc), to fundraising, events & touchline manager courses. See more here: www.leedsrugbyfoundation.org/ I'm not sure how this compares to other foundations, but it's helped our club massively over the past year or so. With regard to playing numbers, the Foundation have recently been running an initative to get as many clubs running an U8's (I think it was that age group) as possible. I'm sure in 2013 there were just 3 clubs and this year it had gone up to around 7.

From my own experiences both as a player and a coach -

There are a few reasons why amateur RL (from very young age all the way up to open age) isn't anywhere near as big as it should be.
Partly there's much more competition for people's time and attention. Especially at kids level we find kids dropping out often because their parents can't bring them due to work commitments at evenings and weekends. A big change from when I was a lad playing when the vast majority of parents worked "regular" hours.
Also there are a lot more one parent families, that lone parent has less time or is less willing to give up that time with their child.

But the biggest reason, in my opinion, is the aggressive, backward and parochial nature of many amateur clubs.
I stopped playing amateur RL when I reached 15 because of the atmosphere. I didn't want to fight, I didn't want to tackle high, I didn't like the atmosphere. I just wanted to have some fun playing the game I loved.
After a year or so I went to Union and thoroughly enjoyed it, playing for several years. If I hadn't been part of a family steeped in RL I'd probably be a Union rather than League fan right now.

As a coach we get several kids who are put off by the atmosphere at clubs. Just in the last couple of years I've had kids told not to go back because they were too small, that they're not good enough and should go to a "lesser" club, kids family members physically and verbally attacked on the sideline and numerous examples of aggressive and intimidating atmosphere at clubs. With reports of adult teams stood around the pitch drinking and swearing.

Whilst it can be difficult for a club to control all it's coach's or players actions, there are too many incidences of aggressive and intimidating behaviour at amateur clubs for the club officials to not be accountable for it.

I know of one club with a coach currently suspended allowing that person to continue coaching other age groups.

Unfortunately there are lots of people involved in amateur RL at all levels be it player, coach or official who need banning from the game.

Whilst there are issues at RFL/SL/Championship level of the game that means RL doesn't fulfil it's potential, I firmly believe the sports BIGGEST problem is the amateur game. It actively puts off participants, supporters and investors from becoming involved in the game.

Another final example of this, a lad I used to coach was at a Yorkshire amateur club, he eventually got sick of fights in games, u12's level mind, so he went to Union. He's now just got into some England Union scholarship programme.
Despite the fact that RL might have lost a potentially good player, RL has definitely lost a supporter.

Sorry for the rant, it just annoys me.

Get down to the Wigan St Judes rugby festival this Saturday if you're at a loose end and support Junior Rugby League.

There's still BIG issues between different factions of the game
The Leagues don't cooperate with each other
BARLA competitions clash with RFL Junior competition and neither will compromise
Scholarships are viewed as a nuisance to the community clubs and I've heard Community coaches advising potential scholarship players not to play or train in scholarship or they'll be dropped from a community game.

Behaviour around the pitch is often atrocious with vile abuse and even physical threats aimed at kids not yet in their teens. I've actually seen a Touchline Manager sent from the touchline for threatening a 12 year old.

One of the major issues is when lads turn 14, there's a big drop in numbers as the switch from Saturdays to Sundays means they're asked to choose between football and Rugby.

There's very few examples of continuity between schools, Community Clubs and the pro game with no unified approach and a consistent message.

I'd like to see a unit/department set up to look at how all this could be improved

Does the rfl produce participation numbers?

Nothing would put me off more than abusive swearing parents at the game.
My son plays under Nines, at each game both home and away there is an A Frame sign that says something along the lines of this...

Its Kids enjoying themselves
Its not the World Cup
Referees can make mistakes
Its not life and death, enjoy the game.
And a few other lines I can not remember.

If a parent starts swearing or carrying on the Parents around him pull him (or her) into line or the Game official comes over and gives him a polite warning. (if the warning is not heeded the Police can be called)

I guess if the majority are offensive its a lost cause.

Here in Oz parents who can't control their "enthusiasm" get a warning and if not heeded the child is booted from the club. Harsh but effective.

I used to play amateur in Widnes as a kid for Lunts Heath from under-9s to under-16s back in the 90s and I stopped for similar reasons to Him (plus girls and parties!).

The majority of us played regularly for our Junior schools or at least regularly in games lessons. They was a healthy Junior School competition and I remember St Basil's, St Bede's, St John Fisher, Fairfield and Sims Cross all having strong sides.

I left Widnes not long after and when I visit I'm shocked that my nephews do not play at junior school whatsoever. I asked them why and they replied "we go to a family orientated school so Rugby isn't allowed" obviously quoting something they've been told by a teacher.

I don't have kids myself so was wondering if any Primary schools play rugby at all? It was certainly how we all got into it years ago.

Is that right? I'm a bit baffled by that response.

Done in the right environment, junior sport is an excellent way of teaching children, not only athletic skills to keep them healthy, but also social skills like communication, teamwork, and character building. Social skills that can be used in a sporting context as well as within a family.

Back on topic, I think the demands of work, family and other important life aspects are beginning to get in the way of junior and open age Rugby League. As mentioned above, a lot more parents are being forced to work evenings and weekends, time that was traditionally set aside for social and leisure activities. I think rugby league is shooting itself in the foot when other activities can be far more appealing during the summer months (weddings, holidays, other family members(!) etc) which can be unavoidable and create a drop in playing numbers.

What days do your teams play. In Hull they are as follows and it works well for the Mini Mods

U6 , U7 and U8 on a Tuesday evening

U9 on a Weds evening

U10 on a Thursday evening

U11 upwards is Sundays


I know a lot of Yorkshire teams are all Saturdays (till U14?) please correct me if im wrong.

Easier for Hull teams to play week nights due to location, i know other leagues you have to travel a decent distance but not sure what age thats is from

It does, i have some figures somewhere, will dig them out.

I seem to recall about a year ago RL was amongst a number of sports who had their funding reduced by Sport England due to a drop off in participants.

It certainly wasn't a problem unique to RL and somewhat pointed to a lack of sustainable rention following an increase in sport numbers post 2012 Olympics.

Unfortunately you are not alone in your experiences and I have encountered similar attitudes at numerous clubs to the point that as a primary teacher I recommend local Union clubs instead of league clubs for children who show interest in the game!

In many clubs once the game moves out the primary level (when leagues start) if you aren't big enough you will just not get played regardless of skills, knowledge, reading and understanding of the game. Unfortunately this means that up to a third of the players in a team (the smallest) will be lost to the game (to the point where they become so disillusioned that not only do they give up playing but also attending matches); this is at the point before they have hit puberty and they have developed physically. At the same time those going through puberty are being excessively played at a point in which they are prone to injuries (and being pressured to play whilst injured) to the point where they may not be able to continue playing. The sad thing is that in all probability it is players who develop later on who will become stars - Bob Pickles (talent scout) discussing the U16 Top Gun camps said Chev Walker was the only one who ever really made it.

The junior leagues attitude is they essentially don't care (which goes against their own safeguarding policy). Those in the RFL who are responsible for the junior game are also heavily involved in the junior leagues (see previous sentence).

The must win attitude (whether this is due to the league structure, unqualified / uneducated coaches living their ambitions through their kids, or trying to make up for other inadequacies) which encourages coaches play their biggest / favourite players is the reason why Union have not introduced leagues for age grade rugby - they acknowledge the negative aspects that this brings to the game and only have occasional tournaments or cup matches in which clubs really test themselves against each other.

To be fair to RL, IIRC it wasn't that the number of participants actually fell, just that the target set was for a significant increase which didn't happen.

There is also a problem with the way the participation numbers are put together. IIRC it doesn't include under 14's, and team sports are at a disadvantage. For instance anyone who cycles to work would be included in the cycling participation numbers and anyone who goes for a run would be included in the athletics numbers.

I also point the finger more at the league set ups and officials rather than the RFL. They have the power to ban players, coaches, club officials etc yet regularly don't. Often because the league officials are too pally with the club officials and coaches. So we never see any improvement.

Yep. Spot on.
It's incredibly frustrating to see people actively turned away from our sport. I simply hate the attitude that runs through the amateur game, especially at adult level. I know this discussion is mostly focused on junior rugby but the game at adults level puts so many people off from being involved. Something which, again, has nailed with its adult game. It has 1st teams which are taken relatively seriously, but then the 2nd, 3rd and Cavaliers teams are pretty much purely for fun and enjoyment. I can remember playing for York RU's 3rd team when I was 16, there was a 63 year old playing, and no-one on the opposite side smashed him. Which is what would have happened in a League game. Whenever he got the ball he was still tackled but carefully and everyone made sure he wasn't hurt. Did it affect the game? Not one bit. And everyone had a great time.
That 63 year old is now in his mid 70's and obviously doesn't play but he's still involved with the club and, along with a group of 5/6 old fellas, chucks a bit of money in every now and again when a junior team needs a new kit or there's a bit of work to be done somewhere.

We, as a sport, have to get the amateur out of the mindset that they're just like the pro clubs and that it's just as important and that every game is played with a pro's aggression. There is no need for it.
Also we have to get the amateur game to realise it has 2 roles.
1 - To provide quality players to the semi-pro and pro clubs
2 - To involve people in the sport.
I'd say the amateur game is on the borderline of failure with role #1 and complete and total failure with role #2.

Absolutely spot on - and mirrors my experience.

Touch RL could be massive in schools and a great vehicle to get kids involved in RL proper. Shame the RFL have no clue about how to leverage off this form of RL and seem content to let RU lay claim to it.

Quote ="JB Down Under"Touch RL could be massive in schools and a great vehicle to get kids involved in RL proper. Shame the RFL have no clue about how to leverage off this form of RL and seem content to let RU lay claim to it.'" Except for the Touch RL campaign that's been running for the past few months. www.playtouchrugbyleague.co.uk/ #blindrflbashing

Quote ="JB Down Under"Touch RL could be massive in schools and a great vehicle to get kids involved in RL proper. Shame the RFL have no clue about how to leverage off this form of RL and seem content to let RU lay claim to it.'" Except for the Touch RL campaign that's been running for the past few months. www.playtouchrugbyleague.co.uk/ #blindrflbashing

please! compare the RL effort to the Ru efforts, didn't say they are doing nothing, just in typical RL fashion it is half d. lol at Union promoting a version of RL and trying to claim it as their own though. o2touch.rfu.com/ It is shame the RFL don't link up with national body for touch instead of calling it touch rugby league and setting up there own system. www.englandtouch.org.uk

please! compare the RL effort to the Ru efforts, didn't say they are doing nothing, just in typical RL fashion it is half d. lol at Union promoting a version of RL and trying to claim it as their own though. o2touch.rfu.com/ It is shame the RFL don't link up with national body for touch instead of calling it touch rugby league and setting up there own system. www.englandtouch.org.uk

Touch rugby is popular in primary schools in the area I live in:
The local RU club send in a coach and provide PE lessons and after school clubs.
The local RU club organises a tournament for the primary schools.
The local RU club on the back of this has its own touch rugby games / coaching.
The local RU club then encourages players to try contact RU at which point it nurtures them through stages of the game giving them fair game time regardless.

In contrast RL has a website which appears to be aimed at adults. If a child happens to make it to a RL club and decide to give it a go, if they aren't good enough by the age of twelve (year 7), they are likely to be dumped on the scrapheap with no opportunity to play. Considering that touch RL is mostly introduced at year 6, how many who have never played or watched the sport will stick at playing for more than a year before giving up?

My experience is that youth RL is closed shop unless you are related to club officials and coaches, have family who can financially support a club through sponsorship or are big for your year group (usually born Sept. - March).