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Essentially Warrington won on Saturday as they were not as bad as Wigan. They did try their best to hit the suicide button, but Wigan were simply not clinical enough to exploit it. Two very average sides. Or at least that was the hypothesis.
After the disappointment of Saturday I have been watching some old Wigan games, not to cheer me up, but to answer a question that came into my head repeatedly throughout the game- what on earth has happened to the standard of play/player in RL in the UK?
The harsh reality is that in the last 15 years the only area in which the game has moved on is fitness/strength.
In almost every other area it has gone backwards. There are fewer superstars, less entertaining football (maybe connected to the first one, maybe not), and certainly less "memorable" games.
I asked myself "Surely the CC cannot be responsible for ALL of this". Sadly I found myself time and time again coming to the conclusion that it has.
The CC is a very powerful weapon in RL in the UK, it effectively drags down teams to the lowest average level (it has to mathematically, and thus by it's very nature breeds mediocrity).
"But they have a CC in Austrailia and that works". Well yes and no. They do have one, but the level of media attention ensures that a top players earnings outside his direct salary in Oz will earn far more than one over here.
"They have one in American Football" - yes, however, that is in a country where there is no viable alternative to playing Gridiron (if you are cut out for that type of game), oh and there is also the massive absolute difference in the cap, not to mention sponsorship/other earnings opportunities.
The difference in the UK is that the CC is really hurting the product on display. Few people notice this as the process has been a gradual one over time. Watching video's of how RL used to be played rams home this blunt fact.
Not surprising when we lose players such as:
www.swinglow.net/news/viewarticle.asp?id=21584
Which brings us back to the display on Saturday. We can't blame the players (on both sides) for not being up to it. They did their best. The truth is they are simply not as talented as those who would have competed in the same game 15 years ago.
Yet who is really to blame for the continued acceptance of this mediocrity? Well people like me. In just over 2 weeks time I will trudge down to Wembley, as I have done for 20 odd years and watch the game. I now realise I am giving tacit approval to the CC in principle, and more importantly to it's effect on the game.
Well this will be the last time I do it. Enough is enough. I am no longer prepared to accept a second rate spectacle. If I had wanted to see "competitive" or "level playing field" games, I would go and watch Amateur RL.
In 10 years in order to see true talent I believe RU will be my only option. |
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Essentially Warrington won on Saturday as they were not as bad as Wigan. They did try their best to hit the suicide button, but Wigan were simply not clinical enough to exploit it. Two very average sides. Or at least that was the hypothesis.
After the disappointment of Saturday I have been watching some old Wigan games, not to cheer me up, but to answer a question that came into my head repeatedly throughout the game- what on earth has happened to the standard of play/player in RL in the UK?
The harsh reality is that in the last 15 years the only area in which the game has moved on is fitness/strength.
In almost every other area it has gone backwards. There are fewer superstars, less entertaining football (maybe connected to the first one, maybe not), and certainly less "memorable" games.
I asked myself "Surely the CC cannot be responsible for ALL of this". Sadly I found myself time and time again coming to the conclusion that it has.
The CC is a very powerful weapon in RL in the UK, it effectively drags down teams to the lowest average level (it has to mathematically, and thus by it's very nature breeds mediocrity).
"But they have a CC in Austrailia and that works". Well yes and no. They do have one, but the level of media attention ensures that a top players earnings outside his direct salary in Oz will earn far more than one over here.
"They have one in American Football" - yes, however, that is in a country where there is no viable alternative to playing Gridiron (if you are cut out for that type of game), oh and there is also the massive absolute difference in the cap, not to mention sponsorship/other earnings opportunities.
The difference in the UK is that the CC is really hurting the product on display. Few people notice this as the process has been a gradual one over time. Watching video's of how RL used to be played rams home this blunt fact.
Not surprising when we lose players such as:
www.swinglow.net/news/viewarticle.asp?id=21584
Which brings us back to the display on Saturday. We can't blame the players (on both sides) for not being up to it. They did their best. The truth is they are simply not as talented as those who would have competed in the same game 15 years ago.
Yet who is really to blame for the continued acceptance of this mediocrity? Well people like me. In just over 2 weeks time I will trudge down to Wembley, as I have done for 20 odd years and watch the game. I now realise I am giving tacit approval to the CC in principle, and more importantly to it's effect on the game.
Well this will be the last time I do it. Enough is enough. I am no longer prepared to accept a second rate spectacle. If I had wanted to see "competitive" or "level playing field" games, I would go and watch Amateur RL.
In 10 years in order to see true talent I believe RU will be my only option. | |
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Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Essentially Warrington won on Saturday as they were not as bad as Wigan. They did try their best to hit the suicide button, but Wigan were simply not clinical enough to exploit it. Two very average sides. Or at least that was the hypothesis.
After the disappointment of Saturday I have been watching some old Wigan games, not to cheer me up, but to answer a question that came into my head repeatedly throughout the game- what on earth has happened to the standard of play/player in RL in the UK?
The harsh reality is that in the last 15 years the only area in which the game has moved on is fitness/strength.
In almost every other area it has gone backwards. There are fewer superstars, less entertaining football (maybe connected to the first one, maybe not), and certainly less "memorable" games.
I asked myself "Surely the CC cannot be responsible for ALL of this". Sadly I found myself time and time again coming to the conclusion that it has.
The CC is a very powerful weapon in RL in the UK, it effectively drags down teams to the lowest average level (it has to mathematically, and thus by it's very nature breeds mediocrity).
"But they have a CC in Austrailia and that works". Well yes and no. They do have one, but the level of media attention ensures that a top players earnings outside his direct salary in Oz will earn far more than one over here.
"They have one in American Football" - yes, however, that is in a country where there is no viable alternative to playing Gridiron (if you are cut out for that type of game), oh and there is also the massive absolute difference in the cap, not to mention sponsorship/other earnings opportunities.
The difference in the UK is that the CC is really hurting the product on display. Few people notice this as the process has been a gradual one over time. Watching video's of how RL used to be played rams home this blunt fact.
Not surprising when we lose players such as:
www.swinglow.net/news/viewarticle.asp?id=21584
Which brings us back to the display on Saturday. We can't blame the players (on both sides) for not being up to it. They did their best. The truth is they are simply not as talented as those who would have competed in the same game 15 years ago.
Yet who is really to blame for the continued acceptance of this mediocrity? Well people like me. In just over 2 weeks time I will trudge down to Wembley, as I have done for 20 odd years and watch the game. I now realise I am giving tacit approval to the CC in principle, and more importantly to it's effect on the game.
Well this will be the last time I do it. Enough is enough. I am no longer prepared to accept a second rate spectacle. If I had wanted to see "competitive" or "level playing field" games, I would go and watch Amateur RL.
In 10 years in order to see true talent I believe RU will be my only option.'"
I agree about the SC but games can still be exciting and I love following my team and I still love the sport. |
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Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Essentially Warrington won on Saturday as they were not as bad as Wigan. They did try their best to hit the suicide button, but Wigan were simply not clinical enough to exploit it. Two very average sides. Or at least that was the hypothesis.
After the disappointment of Saturday I have been watching some old Wigan games, not to cheer me up, but to answer a question that came into my head repeatedly throughout the game- what on earth has happened to the standard of play/player in RL in the UK?
The harsh reality is that in the last 15 years the only area in which the game has moved on is fitness/strength.
In almost every other area it has gone backwards. There are fewer superstars, less entertaining football (maybe connected to the first one, maybe not), and certainly less "memorable" games.
I asked myself "Surely the CC cannot be responsible for ALL of this". Sadly I found myself time and time again coming to the conclusion that it has.
The CC is a very powerful weapon in RL in the UK, it effectively drags down teams to the lowest average level (it has to mathematically, and thus by it's very nature breeds mediocrity).
"But they have a CC in Austrailia and that works". Well yes and no. They do have one, but the level of media attention ensures that a top players earnings outside his direct salary in Oz will earn far more than one over here.
"They have one in American Football" - yes, however, that is in a country where there is no viable alternative to playing Gridiron (if you are cut out for that type of game), oh and there is also the massive absolute difference in the cap, not to mention sponsorship/other earnings opportunities.
The difference in the UK is that the CC is really hurting the product on display. Few people notice this as the process has been a gradual one over time. Watching video's of how RL used to be played rams home this blunt fact.
Not surprising when we lose players such as:
www.swinglow.net/news/viewarticle.asp?id=21584
Which brings us back to the display on Saturday. We can't blame the players (on both sides) for not being up to it. They did their best. The truth is they are simply not as talented as those who would have competed in the same game 15 years ago.
Yet who is really to blame for the continued acceptance of this mediocrity? Well people like me. In just over 2 weeks time I will trudge down to Wembley, as I have done for 20 odd years and watch the game. I now realise I am giving tacit approval to the CC in principle, and more importantly to it's effect on the game.
Well this will be the last time I do it. Enough is enough. I am no longer prepared to accept a second rate spectacle. If I had wanted to see "competitive" or "level playing field" games, I would go and watch Amateur RL.
In 10 years in order to see true talent I believe RU will be my only option.'"
I agree about the SC but games can still be exciting and I love following my team and I still love the sport. | |
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move on, the game has, seems you havn't
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| funny i was reading his post and thought it was all the fault of the CC challenge cup  |
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So Kenny, what you seem to be suggesting is that:
a) The salary cap has led to RL losing players that, so far as we know, were never in the RL talent pool to begin with, may have had no interest in RL at any stage in their lives and made the decision before they hit their teenage years that their earning potential would be hindered in RL. (Just imagine that playground discussion!)
and/or
b) Losing world-beaters like Chev Walker, Chris Ashton, Vinne Myler, Lee Smith and a crocked Lesley Vainikolo has brought down the standard of SL.
The "standard" may have come down, but there are plenty of factors behind that other than the salary cap. The talent pool is too small, youth coaching is poor, facilities are poor - all factors that have nothing, zip, nada to do with how much Wigan can afford to pay muppets like David Vaeliki, Stuart Fielden and Tim Smith. The comparisons with Aus are a red herring. Their talent pool is far bigger that ours (and rising).
Admit it Kenny, your arguments are based on the fact that your club can no longer "buy" the league although even if they could try, their spending power would, at best, be on a par with a number of other clubs who are far better managed than yours.
Cream will always rise to the top, why clubs like Leeds and St Helens can remain consistent and Wigan can't is an issue for Wigan, not the salary cap auditors.
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| Quote ="number 6"move on, the game has, seems you havn't'"
That's just my point. It hasn't. It has gone backwards. |
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"funny i was reading his post and thought it was all the fault of the CC challenge cup
'"
Oddly enough so did I. |
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"That's just my point. It hasn't. It has gone backwards.'"
no, wigan have gone backwards, the game is now levelling out, all teams have now the chance of reaching finals, as we have just seen at the weekend, it looks like just another dummy spat from a wigan fan who thinks they still have the divine right to win everything and sign anyone they want. the salary cap is here, here to stay and working, you need to learn to accept it |
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| Quote ="bramleyrhino"So Kenny, what you seem to be suggesting is that:
a) The salary cap has led to RL losing players that, so far as we know, were never in the RL talent pool to begin with, may have had no interest in RL at any stage in their lives and made the decision before they hit their teenage years that their earning potential would be hindered in RL. (Just imagine that playground discussion!)
and/or
b) Losing world-beaters like Chev Walker, Chris Ashton, Vinne Myler, Lee Smith and a crocked Lesley Vainikolo has brought down the standard of SL.
The "standard" may have come down, but there are plenty of factors behind that other than the salary cap. The talent pool is too small, youth coaching is poor, facilities are poor - all factors that have nothing, zip, nada to do with how much Wigan can afford to pay muppets like David Vaeliki, Stuart Fielden and Tim Smith.
Admit it Kenny, your arguments are based on the fact that your club can no longer "buy" the league although even if they could try, their spending power would, at best, be on a par with a number of other clubs who are far better managed than yours.
The comparisons with Aus are a red herring. Their talent pool is far bigger that ours (and rising). Cream will always rise to the top, why clubs like Leeds and St Helens can remain consistent and Wigan can't is an issue for Wigan, not the salary cap auditors.'"
Once again a Pro CC supporter brings the REAL reason that he supports it to the fore.
He is paranoid about Wigan.
If you read my thread I used Wigan twice. Once to highlight how poor the standard was on Saturday and once to highlight how good it was 15 years ago.
Apart from that I never mentioned a specific team. Yet you bring your anti Wigan bile to the fore.
You are right though, I only care about Wigan. That must explain my attendance at the Challenge Cup Final for the last 20 odd years. |
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| XBrettKennyX
=
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| Quote ="number 6"no, wigan have gone backwards, the game is now levelling out, all teams have now the chance of reaching finals, as we have just seen at the weekend, it looks like just another dummy spat from a wigan fan who thinks they still have the divine right to win everything and sign anyone they want. the salary cap is here, here to stay and working, you need to learn to accept it'"
It isn't "working" though is it?
Unless you think that decreasing the standard of football is what it is designed to do. |
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| Quote ="Wire_Yed_79"XBrettKennyX
=
'"
Great. Your ability to debate is second to none. Well done. |
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Damn Communists.
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I blame the credit crunch.
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| Quote ="Wheels"I blame the credit crunch.'"
I blame it on [ithe boogie[/i.
Henderson Gill's the be specific. |
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Once again a Pro CC supporter brings the REAL reason that he supports it to the fore.
He is paranoid about Wigan.
If you read my thread I used Wigan twice. Once to highlight how poor the standard was on Saturday and once to highlight how good it was 15 years ago.
Apart from that I never mentioned a specific team. Yet you bring your anti Wigan bile to the fore.
You are right though, I only care about Wigan. That must explain my attendance at the Challenge Cup Final for the last 20 odd years.'"
It's got nothing to do with Wigan (ignoring the fact that they are a superb example of how to completely mis-manage a salary cap), none of the points that you raise about "falling standards" relate to the salary cap. It's just that you come out with the same rethoric after every Wigan defeat.
Football doesn't have a salary cap and yet, the standard of English football players (in my view) is falling. Whilst you could say that we are no longer producing a Hanley or an Edwards, the FA aren't producing another Matthews or Charlton. We are producing good players, not world beaters, but good quality players. The reason we don't have an Ellery Hanley in every team is the same reason why Northern Ireland haven't found another George Best or why Yorkshire CC haven't found another Fred Trueman - those players don't grow on trees.
Lets say we scrap the salary cap tomorow morning - what happens then? Are a bunch of school kids in the West Country going to swap RU for RL? Are amateur clubs in this country going to be over-run with talented kids wanting to play because they might become multi-millionaires? Are coaches and facilities going to improve to make the most of that talent? Of course they aren't.
Top-level spending in Super League (ie, player salaries) has minimal effect on grass roots RL. Where the clubs engage through the amateur game is through community work, not through buying in the most expensive Aussie that they can find. |
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Of course the salary cap is working.
It is designed to drag the best down to the level of the rest.
It has succeeded in that. The RFL in introducing SL in 2008 said they were to continue their successful policy of levelling down.
Where it has failed is that it was brought in to stop clubs getting into financial trouble. In that respect it has failed totally. From Oldham in 1997 to Rochdale and Doncaster this year clubs have continually got themselves into financial trouble despite all being subject to salary caps.
It was then suggested that SL would be competitive due to the cap restrictions. What was not wanted was one club winning everything as Wigan used to.
In that it has failed. Saints have topped the League the last four seasons and won the cup the past three. These past few years SL has been a one horse race just as when Wigan won things. That SL has been a competitive League is total nonsense.
We were then told that due to the cap and the competitive SL this would strengthen the International Squad and we would have far better results v Aus & Kiwis than prior to the cap. So to the cap fans the 52-4 humiliation in Melbourne 2008 world cup was a far better result than the 38-10 victory over the Aussie in 1992 in the same City. Prior to the cap we used to win one lose two v the Aussie. Since the cap we've won one in the last fourteen.
We do not have the same calibre pf player in SL as we had prior to the cap. Fourteen years after Union went pro SL & RFL still haven't managed to deal with it and still bring in quality Union players to league. Clubs have the money but they can't spend it due to the salary cap restrictions.
BK is absolutely right. The decline in British RL standards is due to the cap.
Two years ago 49% of SL players were from overseas and the number of British players in SL has halved since its inception. That's due to the success of the salary cap restrictions!
As for getting out of it we haven't a hope. Our chairman is a devoted fan of the cap and all its "successes". When the majority of SL chairmen are in favour of no progress as it would make them less competitive we have no chance. Unless some chairmen who want the game to progress and succeed break ranks then the outlook is grim indeed.
The next time we travel down under at this rate of decline our 52-4 thrashing might seem by then a reasonable result.
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Personally I'd be all for the salary cap if teams were rewarded for bringing youngsters through the youth system but all we get is average or way past their best Aussies at every single club in the league.
The amount of over hyped Australians in Super League is unbelievable. I've watched Tim Smith for the past year and cannot believe he was once a young player of the year in the NRL.
There are odd gems like Dobson at Hull KR and Gidley at Saints but the rest just stop young lads coming through for me.
Most of the Australian imports are not that much better than what we have. As individuals they are all hype and no substance.
Collectively as a national side they have the edge because of the mental toughness sharpened by the origin series, not because of better individual talent - in my view.
Definetly though standards have been brought down. Not just here in Super League but in the NRL as well.
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| Quote ="Father Ted"It was then suggested that SL would be competitive due to the cap restrictions. What was not wanted was one club winning everything as Wigan used to.
In that it has failed. Saints have topped the League the last four seasons and won the cup the past three. These past few years SL has been a one horse race just as when Wigan won things. That SL has been a competitive League is total nonsense.'"
I have to say I find this one of the funniest things about these anti salary cap rants from some Wigan fans. Their irrationality extends to claiming that Saints have dominated a competition that in reality they have won once in the last six years. |
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Great. Your ability to debate is second to none. Well done.'"
My ability to debate is actually quite good but why waste the time with you.
You're like a broken record, salary cap is killing the game blah blah blah rugby's gone down hill blah blah blah 
Only Wigan fans have this view, you're in the minority
This is coming from a Wire fan and we have loads of money, we could quite easily assemble a fantastic squad without the SC but that still doesn't change my view.
Your view is an antiquated one |
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| Quote ="Father Ted"
It was then suggested that SL would be competitive due to the cap restrictions. What was not wanted was one club winning everything as Wigan used to.
In that it has failed. Saints have topped the League the last four seasons and won the cup the past three. These past few years SL has been a one horse race just as when Wigan won things. That SL has been a competitive League is total nonsense.
'"
So in other words, one of the two clubs that have managed the cap properly have been successful? Quelle surprise.
It's a wonder that when Wigan overspend the cap in 2007 by some £220,000 (enough for two international players then), they could still only manage a mid-table finish.
Quote There are odd gems like Dobson at Hull KR and Gidley at Saints but the rest just stop young lads coming through for me. '"
I'd agree in part, but the question should be why those players are not deemed good enough to be entrusted with the pressures of SL rugby. Is it down to a coaches decision or is it down to the players not being capable. Either way, it is an issue to address although, unfortunately for Kenny, not a salary cap one. |
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Erm
Where has this quite bizzare claim that standards have dropped come from?
What single shred of evidence is there that the best have been lowered down?
If any of the salary cap denigrators can tell me why this is the case, then we can progress.
But go back and watch those old games, and remember, only one club is full time, thats why they look better. It isnt because they are better by any stretch of the imagination certainly not to me who has been watching the game for over 30 years.
Most of the problem might be completely removed if XBretKennyX and his ilk would actually admit that there were actually some very good players appearing for other teams (this applies to a lot of people in the other camp too)
I dare say admitting that their team isnt a "top" team any more might help as well.
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