In another post I highlighted where Englands defence was woeful.

Shame but I was proved right.

Why did Maguire refuse to pass to Tomkins in the first 20 minutes?

If Mcguire is so is laughable what does that make the rest of Super League, as he's been one of the most influential players in the best team in SL.

He had a bad day at the office, simple as that.

This and the Tomkins thread highlights EXACTLY what is wrong with international rugby league.

The narrow minded short sighted blinkered with club loyalty "fans".

If my 11 year old can grasp the concept of Country before Club, then it's pathetic that some more "mature" posters on here can't.

I despair I really do.

How did leeds win 3 GRAND FINALS ON THE TROT against you with such a poor player in a pivotal position?

i was watching tomkins in the 1st half and it looked like he had been told to support the ball, he was constantly buzzing round the back looking for a second phase i think.
now if he was told to play like that, fair enough, but if he wasn't, it is a halfbacks job to demand the ball and dictate, even the most hardened sam fans can't deny he never did this and was awol in the 1st half.

deserves his chance next week though on the second half, not amazing but most creativity we've seen in 2 games from any halfback.

It's been like this for years but I actually think its getting worse. Saints and Leeds fans, FC and KR fans all seem to disagree out of principle and everyone wants to have a go at a below par wigan.

I would always put country before anything even if we had a player whom I disliked intensely (and I can't think of any cos they are all braver than me).

Once that shirt goes on club loyalty should mean nothing.

Better players than him?

tompins and eastmond did a better job.

You dont think shenton had a good game?

McGuire could be picked at fullback - his best asset was always been his pace, his running game, his step and support play. He could play a 2nd five eighth game from there as Hohaia is doing for the Kiwis. OTOH Shaun Briscoe was pedestrian at fullback, ponderous like Wellens and Radlinski.

McGuire at 1, Eastmond at 6, Tomkins at 7 would provide a triple attacking threat, like the Kiwis and Kangaroos have.

I think its club bias to have any other opinion than mguire being terrible he was woeful in defence and attack, do you see anyone slagging off ryan hall? no because he was one of the reasons the aussies couldnt score down our left all game. Peacock did little but most people on this board realise it was because he was out of position.

Listen i dont like wigan or leeds but when it comes to internationals i put country above club i want every england player to put out a fantastic performance, tompkins did little in the first half, but upped his game in the second and made up for it, mguire didnt and let the team down a number of times.

I understand you desire to defend your players, but mguire performance was undefendable, at least smith and sinfield after having poor first halfs managed to up there game (in differant positions) and managed to come away with some positives. Mguire didnt, maybe myler would have done a worse job i'm not sure.

Either way i think tony smith should give consideration to puuting eastmond and tompkins in the halfs against the kiwis.

good post

He was woeful in attack and defence. Stick Eastmond in and lets at least have some spark on attack.

it was poor, not as bad as some have stated, but it doesnt take much for to get people rolling in glee that Mcguire had a bad game so thats to be expected,

McGuire was hopeless, as he always has been at international level. Shenton was solid but looked to be lacking in confidence on the few occasions he got a pass. Peacock worked hard but is not mobile enough for a second-row. We won't beat NZ by defending, only by shaking them up by starving them of possession and attacking. It's the last thow of the dice so I'd try Tomkis and Myler at half-back, start with Higham at 9 ( Roby is much better as an impact player ) and start with Burgess in the 2nd row, Graham on the bench for impact, too.

Well I don't roll around with glee at any player (especially a good one normally) putting in poor performances in an England shirt. And likewise I don't find the need to try and play down players who did perform better than their experienced counterparts.

McGuire is a good player, however his past 2 outings in an England shirt have been far below the standard the guy should (and is definitely capable of delivering). I don't understand what's going on, but if you watch the flow of play again closely (in the first half particularly) Danny seems to think it's all about him and Kevin.

In the 2nd half Kevin really stepped up when he moved to dummy half, Sam started to see a lot more ball and things started happening. Then Kyle came on and we finally started to look dangerous.

Most underrated player of the day for me - Eorl Crabtree, I thought he was excellent and by far the best prop on the field

I'm not going to bag McGuire out like some people have on here(some people have gone a bit OTT), but the facts are that the other halfbacks in the team have all performed considerably better than him in this series and he shouldn't figure next week.

Shaun Briscoe was another who hasn't performed.

Aww diddums, maybe if the lot on SS didnt big him up all the time then people wouldnt knock him down so much when he has played absolutley crap like he has in the last 2 games.

Oh really, I assume you haven't actually watched any of the previous Internationals which he featured in, i'm referring to the World Cup Semi Final against New Zealand where he was Englands best player. Many Aussie pundits were also impressed by him, including Andrew Johns.

He also didn't do to badly in the mid season test against France before having to leave the field injured.

But, as is the case many people literally cream their pants when he doesn't perform and seem to forget previous performances as they don't fit their agenda.

To be honest I think it was. Tomkins hardly imposed himself on the game did he . I'm not going to slate him as it was his first International, against the Aussies aswell. A stand off generally is expected to run the ball a bit more than the scrum half, but he was having to do both 6 & 7.

I wouldnt disagree with a lot of what you have put here,

but i would look again at the reasons why, first Half Tomkins did nothing, he was poor and his pass selection at times was woeful, Sinfield was pretty much set at loose and we had very little direction, Mcguire was then doing everything he could to bring them both back into the game (poorly), which isnt the job he is there to do,

in the 2nd half Sinfield took the control that was missing (and generally the team improved as a whole) and Mcguire took a back seat, Tomkins then basically spent 40 minutes trying off the cuff stuff with Sinfield doing everything else the halfbacks should do, even when eastmond came back on Sinfield was basically playing hooker or as the one halfback,

Neither Eastmond nor Tomkins seemed to fit into any type of structure, and thats understandable, they are very young and inexperienced,

Mcguire is a very good player, and has had very good games at international level, 2 poor games (and i dont think he was [ithat[/i bad in either of them) doesnt change that

i dont care, and im sure neither does Danny Mcguire

when he counts his money and super league winners rings and looks at his international caps and tours and look back on his career, im sure he really doesnt mind that people who werent good enough and dont know enough got into petty childish pointscoring on an internet messageboard

So you can have your opinion but if anyone says anything against it, it's time to throw the toys out of the pram.