Except he can and does, just maybe not in a way that is spectacular. Sinfield has won many games for leeds with a moment of magic, whether it be a 40/20, and kick near the line, a long cut out pass to the winger, or a flat crash ball to the forwards, even moment of sheer invention which swings the momentum like a short kick off, a kick off aimed to bounce in to touch, a short drop out, a kick at goal aimed to bounce of the crossbar into a team-mates hands

No its not.
Who will they worry about more Sinfield and what he offers or Widdop the Stand off for one of the best Clubs in the NRL?
Widdop has a tactical kicking game, has pace and can go on his own and put defenses in two minds.
Australia would have a totally different game plan against Widdop compared to Kev

I’ve no interest in joining in an ocker circle-jerk with you. Widdop is a good player, one I would partner with Sinfield, but he isn’t Darren Lockyer or Jonathon Thurston. In fact no-one is. Everyone in RL is an inferior half-back to those two, even Cherry-Evans, Cronk or whoever they choose to replace Lockyer or deputise for Thurston. Im not scared of Cherry-evans or Cronk and I doubt the Aussie coaches are scared of Widdop, Sinfield or anyone else. Who the Ocker fans are scared of is as boring as it is worthless.

God help us.

Thanks for that quality input to the debate there.

Would Sinfield be as effective at club level if he hadn't been the captain of a team full of his best mates for 10 + years ?
he has the luxury at Leeds of being part of an untouchable group of players who are pretty good at peaking at the right time.
If he was at say Salford would the media rave about him as much or would he just look like an average player in an average team?
I've watched Sinfield's career from the start and rarely in all that time have i ever watched him and thought " wow that was brilliant" or other gobsmacked phrase to describe what he's done on the field. I have many times for Brough, Tomkins, Chase etc, even McGuire in the past - like i said he's a good leader and captain of his mates but no exciting genius with ball in hand.

You've watched his career from the start? Really because the rest of your post implys that you've hardly watched him at all.

BINGO!!

So Leeds' and SL's most succesful captain has just been a bit lucky cos he's played with his mates.

Really?

Sinfield probably is the best organiser but Brough also organises the team around. He just has more to his game which is what you need IMO

The problem is Sinfield needs to do more than just organise if he is to play at 6. Your stand off is meant to create.

I don't think they would be a debate if Sinfield was captain and was put at 13. The problem is that he is been put into the most Important position which he doesn't have the skills to do at test level IMO.

What he has won at club level is irrelevant IMO, Ian Kirkes won plenty of medals. For me it's about choosing the best players.

He hasn't been put in any position yet, as far as I'm aware the team for the WC is quite a long way off being announced



RE Ian Kirk, take him out of the rhinos team and they would still have won all the titles, could you really say the same about Sinfield?

Just take last seasons run to the grand final for example, he was the best player on the pitch in every one of those games.

I think the nail was hit in a previous post.
sinfield is a very good leader and organiser but not a creative spark compared to other half backs.
brough is a very good creator who has that spark of genius in him.

they are both good at what they do, but at this moment in time,regardless of how many medals sinfield has won along with his team mates, brough is the all round better half back IMO

Not in that context no , but yes in a way because he has been able to carry on doing what he does at Leeds and have the team built around his leadership, if he had left Leeds he would have had to fit into another team with unfamiliar players around him. At Leeds he's had other players over the years to do the creating while he leads....What Sinfield does at Leeds is probably something he can only do at Leeds because of what they have built there !.

He is, when he wants to be, which doesn't appear to be all of the time, or consistently which is why at 30 he's had five different clubs and only a CC club medal to his name (in a game where Sinfield won the the Lance Todd Trophy funnily enough).

Talking of that Sinfield has won MOM in 2 tests against NZ, 2 SL grand finals, 1 CC Final, 1 WCC.

Look, for all of that if Brough keeps his form up and is playung well at the end of the season I would have no qualms in having him in the squad or side, perhaps a 6 & 7 of Sinfield and Brough would work?

But this while hyperbole about Brough being some kind of saviour for the England squad is getting a bit silly IMO, the team and squad hasn't been announced yet, he may well be in there, who knows!

To be honest, i think Mcnamara as already chosen his squad apart from 1 or 2 spots. I personally would have widdop at 6 and Brough at 7 and maybe Sinfield at 13. But i just don't think we have a chance with Sinfield at 6 IHO

So if Leeds have been successful by building a team around Sinfield to allow him to do what he does best, why can't England do the same?

I don't think there would be a single player in that England squad who has anything but the utmost respect for Kevin as a player and a leader. If you listen to other players and coaches talking about him, it's always in glowing terms.

Pick him at six, pick a creative halfback alongside him (whether it be Brough, Widdop or whoever) and have Tomkins linking in from full back in the way Brent Webb used to do at Leeds to give the extra playmaking option.

Let him take the side around the park and lead with others playing off him.

As has been repeated [unumerous [/utimes on this thread, Sinfield may wear the 13 jersey but is anything but a loose forward these days. He is too small to do this, especially internationally. Either he plays stand-off, or not at all.

For me, the default halves pairing would be Widdop and Sinfield. However, should Brough have a wow of a season he really should displace Sinfield, and I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. That said at the moment there's too little in it and Sinfield's more extensive leadership experience edges it over someone who is a little too much of a wild card (Lee Briers, and perhaps even Sean Long are good analogies).

At the end of the day, the most likely scenario is that whoever the chosen pairing are, they will have to shoulder the blame for England's exit from the comp. The halves are our weakest link, whoever we play there.

Brough is either 9/10 or 2/10 match rating type player compared to Sinny who is a 8/10 rated player at is peak and 6/10 rated player on a off day. Therefore if I had to pick one of them it would Sinny each and every week.
As for Brough being selected for England, it's a big NO from me, as he as already played international rugby league for Scotland.

What was his rating at Hudds



I don't agree with the argument he is too small for 13 I don't agree with, he misses very few tackles but has good ball handling skills for a 13.

He is too slow for a 6 and I don't think has good enough passing skills for a 6. He hit the first man nearly everytime against Hudds.

Has Sam Burgess been playing 13? Of the 2 Sam would hurt the Aussies more than 'Sir Kev'. So that leaves no room for Sinfield other than waterboy. He'd probably still get MOM doing that though.

Brough was around a 7/10 on Sat, he wasn't the reason they won, Lunt and Crabtree were far more influential and neither of them bombed an overlap by throwing the ball behind the centre and winger into the stands.

Ponner your wit is about as high as your knowledge of RL.

Awww bless. Try watching some rugby league once in a while

Ahhh the animated smiley reply, intelligent and funny as always.

If you pick Sinfield at 13, then you're picking a playing format that uses 3 half backs and would [i probably[/i split your 6 and 7 left and right. That would essentially mean taking to the field with a 5 man pack - that is not the way to go about things IMO. If we could be confident of beating the Aussies in the forwards, then maybe, but we need all the muscle we can and dropping someone like Ben Westwood for a guy who "misses very few tackles" is not a wise move.

True but I just cannot see McNamara dropping Sinfield and I would rather have him at 13 than 6.

Although I will be absolutely gobsmacked if Sinfield isn't our stand off come the WC, even if we lost to the exiles.