I don't know. That is the description given to him by Widnes fans on here. I know he failed the FA's fit and proper test becuase of his involvement in a fraud at Widnes and that he is presently facing criminal charges.

Quote ="tb"hmm [url=http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20091110/FREE/911109984/103110 November 2009[/url Though there is also this from [url=http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/01/11/soccer-chief-stephen-vaughan-on-fraud-charges-100252-20339294/January 2008[/url Can;t find a follow-up story though'" He was found not guilty of the latter (which related to a motor insurance proposal and maybe also a mortgage or other loan application) and I've seen no reports of any prosecution for the VAT matter. As far as I know the case against him for assault against a police officer is still due for trial in January but then there are also plenty of RL personalities with a bit of previous in this area so we can't afford to be too precious. www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-news ... -27361533/

Quote ="tb"hmm [url=http://www.crainsmanchesterbusiness.co.uk/article/20091110/FREE/911109984/103110 November 2009[/url Though there is also this from [url=http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/01/11/soccer-chief-stephen-vaughan-on-fraud-charges-100252-20339294/January 2008[/url Can;t find a follow-up story though'" He was found not guilty of the latter (which related to a motor insurance proposal and maybe also a mortgage or other loan application) and I've seen no reports of any prosecution for the VAT matter. As far as I know the case against him for assault against a police officer is still due for trial in January but then there are also plenty of RL personalities with a bit of previous in this area so we can't afford to be too precious. www.wirralnews.co.uk/wirral-news ... -27361533/

May be not, but imo there is still a substantial difference between Vaughan and Samuel (whatever one may think of the latter, which for any RL fan has to be not a lot)

Maybe so but both of them got involved with their own best interests at heart, not their respective clubs or the game itself and both in my eyes have been equally damaging to the clubs they shafted.

You might appreciate Michael Shermer's 'Skeptic' column in the current (December) issue of 'Scientific American'.

There were plans to cut costs that needed to be implemented at the end of the 2006 season at the latest.

These plans were never put in place, because Vaughan said that he would cover those debts. He never did, yet continued to spend more. By the time he left, the club had accrued even more debts. The VAT is the worst debt you can have, any businessman will tell you that, as they are utterly ruthless. The situation had gone beyond salvation by simply cutting player costs.

The board members who were left had the choice of putting the club in Admin the day after Vaughan left or, as Steve Fox put it.

This would not have been the position had SV put the previous Chairman’s plans into action.


Let me just sum up the difference between my knowledge of the situation and your halfd spin.

The only chance left to save the club and pay it’s creditors, once SV walked out, was to continue with what had been put in place by SV in the hope of elevation to SL - especially as the licence era was approaching. It wasn’t recklessness or stupidity, it made perfect sense under the circumstances they were left in. This situation was caused by Stephen Vaughan and cutting player wages had become irrelevant.

It has been pointed out to you by a Leyther last year that your own club was in a similar position at the time. It paid off for them, but not for Widnes.

For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t compare SV to LS. One is a crook imo, and the other was just a nut job on a vendetta.

No, apparently the trick is to avoid having any opinions of your own, while sniping at people that do.

If you want to excuse the people who left you without a team or club to support the Monday after the Grand Final, that's your prerogative. It's your club.

But that doesn't mean a) the RFL are somehow at fault, b) Crusaders are somehow at fault or c) people who feel less inclined to think the other directors had no culpability for screwing you Widnes fans are somehow on an anti Widnes crusade..

And if you want to console yourself with some Leyther's frankly ludicrous claim that Cas gambled everything on winning at Headingley and would have gone into administration themselves, then that's your peroragative as well. But it's a fantasy - we didn't and we wouldn't have. Win or lose at Headingley, we would have submitted a strong bid in July 2008.

Quote ="LeythIg"No, apparently the trick is to avoid having any opinions of your own, while sniping at people that do.'" search.php?author_id=1357&sr=posts all my posts going back to 2005. If you're that curious, knock yourself out edit: actually it's not all of them, just those that haven't been pruned from the database

Quote ="LeythIg"No, apparently the trick is to avoid having any opinions of your own, while sniping at people that do.'" search.php?author_id=1357&sr=posts all my posts going back to 2005. If you're that curious, knock yourself out edit: actually it's not all of them, just those that haven't been pruned from the database

I think maybe what you are not taking into consideration is that had the carousel fraud never taken place, the club may not have gone into adminstration. There was at least one board member who didn't want to place the club into adminstration. He wanted to appeal the tax bill from the fraud and if successful he thought the club could have continued.

You are trying to say that the only reason why Widnes went into adminstration was because we gambled our future on players that we couldn't afford. Surely you can see the difference there. i.e. version 1 the club went into adminstration because of a tax bill, or version 2 the club went into administration because we brought in players we couldn't afford.

Also you think there should be blame attatched to the remaining directors, but once Mr Vaughan said "thats me I'm out" What could the club do? contracts had been signed, we couldn't have just not paid the players. Even if the remaining directors would have found £500,000 to pay off the tax fraud, all they would have been doing is paying off Mr Vaughan's debt and Mr Vaughan would have still been the major shareholder. As we saw at Gateshead the other year, one bloke owned the club, but it was someone else who was pumping in all the money - quite rightly, after a while he must have thought whats the point when I don't even own the club. Maybe if the remaining directors would have been the actual owners then they may have made more of an effort to save the club from administration.

As a final note, I think its unfair to blame the remaining directors for not being able to carry on when Vaughan stepped down. At any club where there is one major money man, what can the club do if the money man abruptly says mid-season that he's not going to put in a penny more? You say the other directors allowed Vaughan to let the club get in a mess, but what exactly could they do? At the time it was Vaughan's club and he could pretty much do whatever he wanted. IMO prior to Vaughan stepping down April/May 2007, there was no warning that the directors were all of a sudden going to be asked to start being the major financers (if thats the right phrase) of the club. I was under the impression that there are several RL clubs, probably even more soccer clubs (Chelsea and Man City to name but 2) that are or have been reliant on cash input from one major investor. Widnes expecting Vaughan to pay for the squad he had built was hardly a unique situation.


All in all I think the whole situation was a mess - tax fraud, expensive full-time team, an owner who refused to put in any money, but expected others to keep the club going whilst he stood back. To blame it all on squad recruitment is unfair IMO. Anyways this is all by the by when talking about the next round of licences, but I think it is only fair that people don't give false accounts of what went on at Widnes in 2007.

Fellow Widnes fans you should realise by now that tb and his virtual chums do not care for facts provided by others if they do not conform to their own version of our club's history. You can debate this all you like but he will continue to turn a blind eye to everything you say because in his eyes, there is only one reason why we went into administration and that is through the board buying players we couldn't afford and gambling our club's future on winning the GF. If it is a more convenient and palatable version of events for him to digest, then let him carry on with his merry little fantasy.

You mean gambling on the future and FAILING big time wasn't the reason











They was a different reason to other clubs who through the history of the game have done the same







Well don't you learn something about business, life and how people don't understand things every day.

A new system was developed and we ignorant people were not aware.

Thank you Widnes, the club and all your "knowledgable" fans for this.

Onwards and upwards!!!



















[size=85By the way was this same club who, if Jonathan Davies hadn't had his contract taken over by Warrington, would have gone down the tubes?[/size

Back on topic, apparently the administrator dealing with Crusaders was interviewed on BBC Wales last night and confirmed that the club's debt is in excess of £3 million and the size of it had come as a surprise to the Wrexham owners !

Obviously a lot of proper due dilligence went on in that deal then..............

Thats a lot of debt racked up in 4 years.

You see i dont think it it does. It highlights the idiocy of the conspiracy theorists, and their theories. As still now we get allegations of double standards on Leighs Stadium, and judging Widnes youth development against Cas/Wakefield etc as evidence of certain clubs being 'shafted' by the RFL, because they simply didnt need to 'shaft' anyone, they could follow the rules, be independent, work from the bids, do everything they promised and still get the clubs in SL which they wanted.

That is how the licence process works, he wasnt lying, nor was he giving out any information that wasnt in the public domain. People for some reason (Angela powers didnt help) decided it was a point scoring and box ticking exercise, where a club on 4 points would be ahead of a club on 3, yet it wasnt, and was never advertised as such. To keep their qualification in their own hands, clubs needed to aim to be Cat A, they would have been much safer in Cat B as both were quantative judgements, once you were in Cat C however it became a qualitative judgement. Which is why all this talk of legal action is complete nonsense. The clubs have agreed a system whereby if you are a Cat C club your admission to SL is based on the RFL's opinion. You may disagree with it, but you cant legally challenge their right to have it.

Also with what people are saying on this thread, seemingly in defence of Widnes and their reasons for going into administration makes it seem a simpler and simpler decision for the RFL to leave them out, there is not a chance that Widnes were in a position to be admitted to SL in 2008 if the events of 2007 are true.

Oh look what's crawled out from under it's rock. RLFans biggest talking moron. I see the content of the last few posts regarding our club have been conveniently lost on you also... Your parents must be so proud to have raised such an =#FF0000edit. tb.

Quote ="tb" And if you want to console yourself with some Leyther's frankly ludicrous claim that Cas gambled everything on winning at Headingley and would have gone into administration themselves, then that's your peroragative as well. But it's a fantasy - we didn't and we wouldn't have. Win or lose at Headingley, we would have submitted a strong bid in July 2008. '" Not sure if you meant this in jest but.... viewtopic.php?p=14305067#p14305067 Quote ="tb"Yes dears. Our finances were such that, had we lost that night at Headingley, we would have folded the club the next day and sacked all our players. '" We've had this before, and I wouldn't bee too convinced about Cas staying solvent based on the financial situation they were in at the time and facing up to the prospect of 3 years in the Championship. viewtopic.php?p=14304585#p14304585 viewtopic.php?p=14306912#p14306912

Quote ="tb" And if you want to console yourself with some Leyther's frankly ludicrous claim that Cas gambled everything on winning at Headingley and would have gone into administration themselves, then that's your peroragative as well. But it's a fantasy - we didn't and we wouldn't have. Win or lose at Headingley, we would have submitted a strong bid in July 2008. '" Not sure if you meant this in jest but.... viewtopic.php?p=14305067#p14305067 Quote ="tb"Yes dears. Our finances were such that, had we lost that night at Headingley, we would have folded the club the next day and sacked all our players. '" We've had this before, and I wouldn't bee too convinced about Cas staying solvent based on the financial situation they were in at the time and facing up to the prospect of 3 years in the Championship. viewtopic.php?p=14304585#p14304585 viewtopic.php?p=14306912#p14306912

Whereas of course, Crusaders offered the promise of financial stability which even the offer of a £500k bond from Steve O'Connor could not match.

Oh, wait.

Did I read on another thread that "The" Crusaders debts are at £3 million? and all this was accrued by the Celtic Crusaders in a single season of Sooper Dooper League?

And NOBODY buying the club noticed this?! None of the wonderful Wrexham based owners of the new club noticed a £3 million hole in a club whose market value was actually LESS than the value of the debt?

Even George Osborne's not THAT stupid.

And to think that CrudCrudCrud had a bitch at the Bridgend based consortium who bid to buyout Samuel because they refused to take on the debt! So the clueless oafs who took over the club and the debt drove the club into the ground then went crying to the RFL for a handout and THESE are the saviours of RL in Wales?

So Llew, I guess you'll have some sophistry and insults at hand to explain why these self evident facts are ACTUALLY wrong, that Wrexham has been the greatest success in the world and why I am a traitor / Union fan / sad, lonely, pathetic blah blah blah.

so you wanted to the RFL to judge the 2008 Crusaders on the basis of the 2009/2010 position?

Well, the utter bounders, not using their magical crystal ball.

What they should have done, obviously, is admitted a club which was a matter of months on from being in administration after being run into the ground by and apparently violent crook and whose financial position was such that the Chairman felt the need to offer a £500k bond to add confidence to a shaky balance sheet less than a year old.

You didn't need to use a crystal ball to see that it would end in tears. It was blindlingly obvious.

well fortunately it hasnt ended yet, we have already seen some massive uplift for the game in Wales.

Hopefully the obstacles can be overcome and the game can move forward.

Maybe you can see in to the future, the rest of us can't no-one for instance predicted a play-off place for Crusaders this year, yet here we are.

CrudCrudCrud. I see what you did there. Clever. If going down the name calling route is what you plan to do then it says more about you than it does me to be fair. To be honest calling people names from behind their computer and slagging people off that have stuck with the game isn't for me any more. If that's what you plan to do whilst throwing your rugby league toys out of the pram then that's up to you. I intend to stick with the game which is why I still post here. I have better things to do than post on a supporters forum of a game I have supposedly turned my back on.

When did I bitch about the Bridgend consortium? I actually spoke to Gerald McCarthy about it when they were trying to buy the club. They wouldn't take the club on with no debt and it had debt, simple as that really. Samuel wouldn't sell the club and keep the debt, so no sale. I can't see what there is to fail to understand. In your mixed up world the club was ripped from the South Welsh fans even though there was nobody willing to buy what was actually on offer (the club and the debt was one package).

The debt was not accrued in one season of Super League, it was accrued before then as well allegedly. Do you really think that one season at Wrexham where the club was not run like a semi-pro union club like it was in Bridgend would have built up the majority of the debt? If you do you're more confused than I originally thought you were. It was evidently a big mistake by Wrexham Village to pay for a club in that level of debt but I for one am thankful that they did as it meant my club survived.

I'll leave facts of our sport alone though. I'll go away and see if I can make up some witty and funny name to call you, then again I might just get on with my life and support the game I love. If you want to persist on the name calling and slagging off myself and other fans who have stuck by the club then continue. It really is water off a ducks back. In fact it is quite funny to many people that a game that you have turned your back on still gets your back up and you keep reappearing like this.

For fans not realising who the person who has appeared having a pop at Wrexham here is an idea of what he was like when he supported Celtic Crusaders. You'll notice the threats, name calling and promises of retribution evident even back then. viewtopic.php?t=426540 The Leeds fans certainly had their fun. That's all I'll say on the matter from now on as pathetic squabbling is pointless. I just hope he gets banned like he has on other Celtic Crusaders forums for this kind of thing in the past. For me, personal pops at fans like the one I've now seen on another thread are out of order and childish. I just hope the powers that be also feel it is.

For fans not realising who the person who has appeared having a pop at Wrexham here is an idea of what he was like when he supported Celtic Crusaders. You'll notice the threats, name calling and promises of retribution evident even back then. viewtopic.php?t=426540 The Leeds fans certainly had their fun. That's all I'll say on the matter from now on as pathetic squabbling is pointless. I just hope he gets banned like he has on other Celtic Crusaders forums for this kind of thing in the past. For me, personal pops at fans like the one I've now seen on another thread are out of order and childish. I just hope the powers that be also feel it is.

Thanks - I've been looking for a cure for my insomnia



Still not willing to offer an opinion on whether Crusaders should get another franchise?

I take back the idea you have no opinion. You have previously said that Celtic's application was stronger than Leigh's in 2008, so I guess it cant be mandatory to read the full applications before having an opinion.