I typed 4 words and you still twist it.

You really are something else

A couple do. LA has 2 MLB, Football& basketball teams. New York has 2 of every sport. And pretty much every American city has a team in at least 3 of the major sports over there (American football,Baseball,Basketball,Ice Hockey & Soccer). With a number having a team in ALL the sports.
So as you say the placement of any RL team is paramount. Because putting an alien sport in a place where there's already a full market can only lead to one thing long term, failure. Novelty might help at first, but it's not going to sustain a team.

And in my opinion the only way you get American Broadcasters/Media involved big time is if it's an American league (which as you say is along time off). They're are always going to be more interested in Philly v Denver , than Philly v Wigan. That's just the nature of Americans.

And then the issue becomes, if teams are in our league, and an American league takes off. What do they do? And if they leave what becomes of our league?

And to me this was always the big problem (as with a lot of things in RL). We went short term, without looking at the long term. Instead of looking at it, we want to be here in 10 years, so we do this then this then this to get there. We look at it as right if we do this, then that COULD POSSIBLY HAPPEN, and oh we've gone wrong and are back on our knee's. So let's change it all again and hope it works better this time.

Exactly the concern I have been voicing. With every respect to our top clubs, I wonder how many American fans have even heard of Wigan, St Helens, Hull, etc?

We could get caught in two ways if we have 4/5 North American teams in 'our' league:-

If that league becomes successful, our lower tiers gradually wither away. (4/5 NA teams each take say 20 of our players)
If the league is unsuccessful, what becomes of the likes of Wigan, Saints etc, when they are not wanted by the NA teams? Would there be anything left for them to come back to?

Nope. I am just a realist who doesn't subscribe to the propaganda that Toronto are the answer to all the games woes.

In year 1, Toronto did everything they said they would. The paid for away travel for visiting sides, put them up etc.....they did the rounds of PR, Social Media, got themselves a local TV deal, didn't take cash from central funding and not surprisingly walked their division with a team that cost more than the other 11 in their division combined. Well done Wolfpack.

Year 2 is where I see the issues creeping to a head. The work on Lamport has been known about for 3 years and was scheduled as early as Feb 2017.......so they knew it was coming. The fact that they didn't find any other ground for games this year until May is suspicious, to say the least. Then there was the triple departure at the start of the season and the disappearance of Perez? Then the fixture v the French, which would have actually cost them money as their sponsor doesn't fly from Toulouse, is mysteriously bunged onto Magic Weekend.......it's almost like they're being given every assistance available......don't get me wrong, Argyle and his cash are welcome, but SL and the SL graveyard are littered with well meaning multi-millionaires who haven't a clue but believe their wealth entitles them to whatever they want.
Those fawning over Toronto need to realise that Argyle will bin the SL as soon as they get their foothold in the USA.....as other have stated the USA is an insular as a country can be, so Wigan v NYC isn't what they'll Watch.....but LA v Boston is...so if the Gym teacher gets NYC into the SL inside 3 years and we have Boston and Jacksonville joining them, whilst these new teams vacuum up our talent, we make room by replacing the Salfords, Widnes's Huddersfield's......only for these new teams to take their ball and leave us high and dry.
RL has a rich history of well meaning folk cutting corners and trying to do the right thing quickly and on the cheap.......and Toronto is yet another example of this.
As for the topic of crowds. Well done them for getting 3k to the playing field at the weekend......great crowd considering they were 25 clicks from home and playing a bottom club.....but when they arrive in SL next year with no TV deal and no new sponsors, but packed with a suspiciously "cap" tastic and EU Passport holding ANZAC squad, I suspect we'll here more SL chairmen requesting Home and Away scheduling for them, whinging about Premier TV cameras showing games.....

As for Chorley Johns comments about me being anti-expansion......nothing could be farther from the truth. It's just I've seen what happens when you build from the top down.......[urlhttp://www.footballsite.co.uk/Statistics/Articles/FulhamvWigan.htm[/url

Quick.....someone call 007.........Chorley John reckons he's found an evil criminal mastermind..

Again it requires what is expected from the word 'expansion'...This transatlantic lark is a completely different scenario which effects all clubs from top to bottom.

Its either discarded now or they go with it.

I am in no way saying discard it, but if there's an appetite for RL in North America, don't drip feed it, because that just simply won't work. Launch 4 more teams in the Championship in 2019 and see what happens.......not one now, NYC in a couple of years......Boston in 5, Jacksonville in 7.......it just won't get any traction that way.

Fulham got 12k for a visit of Leeds back in the 80's....it was exciting and new....London Broncos gt 6k season 1 in SL where the whole comp averaged only 10% more.....getting fans to a game in seasons 1 and 2 and even 3 is easy enough...it's new and exciting......but Warrington, Widnes, Salford, St Helens, Wigan....in fact all 11 English town sides with maybe the exception of Leeds will be no draw card.

I absolutely loved Perez and the bravado of 2017.......but in reality, on their own in SL Toronto will be useless to expand the game. Unless the SL stops relegation, then they run the risk of going down......a very un-american concept, so do we wrap them in bubble wrap?

Too many unanswered questions and it smacks of the game making it up as it goes along.......

No, I dont agree with wrapping them in cotton wool,but they are guests to the sport and should be treated accordingly,but not as a threat to the heritage of the sport.

If they want more than guests, then lets talk coin now. Toronto will be looking at alternatives,what are the RFL looking at present? 12 SL chairman who can't make a decision based on their own clubs, their own investments and losses. Oh they want a piece of the pie,but just realised it will take another 10 years before they get it.

So the question is. Who allowed Toronto in the league in first place? What was the vision the RFL saw by making that decision? The entry of Toronto was based on one mans vision, Perez! wheres he now?

The plan has evidently changed. Time to move on.

What, Rugby League looking for a quick fix, instead of having some short, medium and long term plan, I dont believe it.

Go on then what is it Leeds "maybe" have that the rest don't ?

Big city status maybe ? (Hull fall into the same category though)
Apart from those 2 (and Wakefield), all of the other clubs are towns or pit villages

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" From the angle provided by Reni & the other guy, that stand had some large gaps as evidenced in the video clip of Bussey's coward punch !

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" From the angle provided by Reni & the other guy, that stand had some large gaps as evidenced in the video clip of Bussey's coward punch !

Which is similar to our games away attendance. Majority of Canadians didn't attend because it was an hours travel out of their way. For some it was closer. The point thats being made here is if they throw another RL club in the same province it would fail, because the sporting nature of these places is only to support 1 team in the same sport as thats all they are use to doing.

Salford, a city likely bigger than Hull & definitely far bigger than Wakefield.

Not the point I was making or responding to though Atomic !

The clips linked by another member show the most advantageous angle from the TW Club perspective, as if to show they are not lying about attendances, TW as a Club will be aware they are being accused of lying about attendances on social media & are trying to firefight .....

This is little more than TW propaganda !

The fact remains that in the clip of Bussey's sly swinging arm into the face of an unaware opponent the clip shows a large-ish section of empty space. The pro expansionists will always try to find a way to defend there agenda.

Also FWIW, North Americans/Canadians are very much used to travelling distances far greater than 25m to a game, you don't think that the Boston Red Sox, LA Lakers, Chicago Bulls or New York Jets all live on the doorstep do you ?
North America/Canada has a very different culture.

*TW fans should be applauded for taking less than 3k to their Home game 25m from downtown Toronto* but TW as a Club should not be applauded for the surreptitious way it goes about it's business.

The damage done to the TWP Club this season with the Lamport farce will be measured on their return to it. I'm not sure what the agenda is regarding attendance of this match, but I'm pretty sure that shouldn't be taken into account given they are on playing field 25m from home.

Also all the places you state don't carry RL clubs,so I take the less than 3k as being hard core fans who enjoy RL,and good on them.

Even with their ground problems, "over inflated" attendance figures and not playing a game at home until 2 months into the season, oh yes and no away fans, they will still top the attendance figures for the Championship.
I still have grave doubts about the viability of a Canadian side in "our" league but, they probably deserve a shot, just to see if there really is any potential.
Having said that, their toughest test will be getting through the middle 8's and all this moaning may be for nothing, as we may start next season with the same 12 clubs in Super League as this year.

As Leigh fans, would you rather nobody was promoted from the Championship or, would you rather swap Toronto for say, Widnes or Salfoird

As with Sky our sport fills a spot in the off seasons of other sports. The same can be said about Toronto,so yes the attendances with 11/12 games on the bounce at home should soar given theres not much else going on.

As with all sports, deserving a shot is whats done on the park, not in the stands. TV/media don't care about whats in the stands.Sponsor's don't care about whats in the stands,it's the camera angle they look at.

The middle 8's is all very reliant on how the fixtures fall. Not sure how Toronto will be accommodated in that aspect.

As for your last point, as I've already stated, Toronto are guests at present and no right to replace any Club in SL unless they can prove that on the park.

Deserving a shot ??

After starting at the bottom of the third tier to appease the less forward thinking fans, they gaind promotion and are currently sitting on to p of the Championship.
Many Leigh fans thought this was enough for them to "deserve a shot"

Your half right about TV, they just want to pay as little as they reasonably can to allow them to fill the breaks with advertising, which is why we now have games on 4 different days of the week, sometimes 5.

I've said before that I personally dont think that N American clubs are viable in SL, purely due to the logistics and cost and whether they will bring additional revenue into the game, rather than push up costs for both clubs and supporters but, you guys (Leigh fans) are desperate for them to fail, which may help Leigh have another go in SL.

It's not all about Leigh, thank god.

Has it been confirmed 2019 will be 12 clubs? There was lots of talk about expanding to 14 or even reducing to 10 clubs pre season, with nothing confirmed as far as I know.

I think the vast majority of Leigh fans are desperate to see Toronto fail.

ALL Leigh fans are only concerned about one thing, promotion. It's only the idiots on here who are thinking otherwise.

Nothing has been confirmed yet regarding any changes to the league structure.
However, there are rumors about Toronto running out of cash and I'm sure that "everyone" is waiting to see how Toronto (and Toulouse) get on this season.
Let's face it, any change will only be made to accommodate one or either of them and if they cant compete and / or gain promotion under the current system, IMO there wont be any change.

For me, they ought to put them both in SL and increase the comp to 14 clubs and exempt them both from relegation for 2or3 seasons and then we will all have a better idea of the practicalities and advantages/disadvantages of having such a diverse top flight.

It's still possible that Toronto wont last the distance but, the longer the are outside the top flight, the more likely they are to fail.

Of course, this "expansion" of the league should be coupled with a renegotiation of the TV contract and again, we will all see whether all the hype about them "bringing more revenue into the game" was real or, just wishful thinking.
Personally, I think the latter and that the whole issue has been somewhat over egged to suit someone's (Big Nige) personal agenda.

The middle 8's will test the practicalities of play off rugby across 3 nations and we'll see just how excited the Sky boys really are.

They didn't grind there way through league 1 though did they. They got the salary cap uped, bought a side good enough for the championship, we're full time when the rest of the league are pt. Then had fixture in the 8 (3 away, then 4 home), that suited them down to the ground.
That's not disparaging them, but all they did last year was what was the least expected of them.
This year they have been doing well, but you could argue that again the fixture list was made to suit them (whoelse do you think could get away with having all there away fixtures 1st, followed by all there home games?). With there cap dispensation (which has never been mentioned by how much? ). You could again argue that they're doing what was expected. It would be interesting if they get promoted and did this next year, Wether SL fans would still be happy about it?.

As I put in an early post, the biggest problem is have personally is if they ever get a North American league going, and there a few teams in our league. What happens then? To both them and if they leave our league?

My own personal choice would be a 8/10 club American league, with clubs just below to expand it. As to fugly promote RL we need more than just 3 countries with leagues in it. But I doubt this will happen.

A full blown N American professional league is light years away, so no need to worry about it and talk of an 8/10 team comp is just fantasy land stuff.

I guess we are going with the N. American version of Catalan, which has been a success.
Maybe SL at could accommodate a second N. American club at some point but, any more than 2 would require a major re think on what "we" want from the sport and it could potentially kill off a couple of existing UK clubs, which would be massively counter productive.

Agree completely that a north American league is light years away if at all. As I really don't think there is as much of an appetite for RL over there as some think. With the amount of sports already over there professionally and college/high school wise, they're already spoiled for choice. Given that RU has for the last 5 years been trying over there , and made little to no impact. It's a fairly arrogant view that all RL has to do is turn up and they'll be falling over themselves for us (not your view I know, just some on here's view).

To be fair, I think the next shaping of the league could do more to kill off some clubs than American teams. If anything this one could be the biggest since 96 (when SL started). And if we get it wrong I really fear for the future of the sport.