None of that is a flaw with the system unless by system you mean having P&R (which if we didn't have then we wouldn't have promoted sides to struggle to stay up). As I posted before it was always the case that a promoted side would be recruiting after all the top tier clubs had sewn up theirs as they knew they were in the top tier while until sealing it at season's end the promoted club(s) didn't. When we had 1 relegation spot the aim was second bottom, when we had two relegated it was 3rd from bottom, with three it was 4th bottom. The aim was always to do just enough to ensure staying up (the odd exception saw a team compete much better and finish a bit higher). The only difference now is that the equivalent to finishing 11th out of 12 in the top tier is to finish 3rd in the qualifiers (or failing that to win the MPG).

Getting thrashed and regularly beaten will hit confidence but using a club in the bottom four as an example it won't be a mauling at the hands of St Helens that will decide if Huddersfield stay up. It will be the games in the qualifiers against Championship teams and 3 other teams that have getting beaten all year too. At least with the qualifiers it will be games against teams of similar ability that ultimately decide the fate of the contenders rather than getting a shellacking by St Helens et al. I'm guessing that you don't like the split season format and want it changed, however the struggle for any promoted club to avoid going back down has nothing to do with the current system for deciding relegation, changing it wouldn't change that.

Realistically something is going to have to give, the level of player in the top 4 or 5 clubs in the Championship is on par with the bottom 4 of SL.

Most of those players are earning more playing in the Championship than in SL which is part of the problem.

SL either needs to go to 2 leagues of 10 or extend to 16 teams.

SL has never been as boring as it is now and in some respects the Championship produces much more excitement.

Something needs to be done now.

Depends why you think SL is boring as to what to do about it.

In my opinion it's boring as there is far to much one man stuff. Sides are doing anything to get penalties which spoils the flow, speed of the game. It's all about size and power rather than skill. And refs and the rules are poor with no consistency in a game let alone over the season.

Of course it's a flaw with the system.
Under any kind of "standard" promotion /relegation, any club would only need to avoid the wooden spoon to be in a position to start and build for the following system.
Also, the better players, unless being substantially over paid, want to play in SL and not want to run the risk of having their contract made void when their club is relegated and this, not only affects any promoted side but, it also hampers the recruitment for any sides that may be under threat of the qualifiers, which allows the top 4/5 sides to attract the better talent and on lower paid contracts.
The system is flawed BUT, it has created a vibrant high risk competition which, for many neutrals and armchair fans, is far more interesting than what is taking place at the top of the pile.

On your second point, it's all about taking confidence into the middle 8's.
IF the SL sides, albeit in the bottom 4 are playing ok and bring in a couple of "stars" in time for the middle 8's, they should be ok and there is always the all or nothing MPG to save them at the last hurdle, again, fundamentally wrong to have so much on 1 fabricated game every season but, it does make compulsive viewing.

Under a standard 1 up 1 down P&R system finishing 11th out of 12 would be enough, I have stated that. Under the system we have the position in the 12 pre-split is largely irrelevant if you are 9th or below as points are then reset, the season isn't finished. Teams 9, 10, 11 and 12 are then joined by the top 4 Championship clubs the de facto teams 13, 14, 15 and 16. At the end of the qualifiers teams 1, 2 and 3 (9,10 and 11) are safe/promoted so the top 11 take a place in SL just as with traditional P&R. then the team ranked 4th (12th overall) gets another bite of the cherry by having to beat 5th (13th overall) to stay up. So a promoted club can finish 12th of 12 after playing everyone twice plus Magic and not be relegated. Under standard P&R they would now be gone but they now can still save themselves with their post-split games and after that they can finish 12th or 13th and still get another chance in the MPG rather than just being down. If a SL team whether newly promoted or not cannot do enough to stay up then they don't deserve to. That is their failing not that of the system, just as it would be if a team that wasn't 12th pre-split ends up going down (as has happened) as they would not have played well enough when it mattered most.

I do agree with you that the MPG should be binned but as it more than any other is a made for tv concept I doubt it will go unless we ditched P&R altogether.

Apart from stating the bleeding obvious, this still means that any promoted club is back in the middle 8 shake up and while the top 8 carry on cherry picking the best OOC players, ALL of the clubs in the middle 8 have to either gamble like hell or wait a couple of months longer to finalise their squads for the following season, it's not the same as 1 up, 1 down at all.
Back in the day, with a quarter of the season left, everyone would know which club was likely to be relegated (or maybe it was down to a couple), which, in terms of available time to sort out their squad, put most clubs on a level playing field.

If you were looking for a club to play for (assuming that you couldnt play for you beloved Wigan), would you pick a club that you were certain would be in SL or aim low and go for a club that could be relegated,which would possibly void your contract. It's a no brainer.

Of course all of the cards are stacked in favour of the incumbent SL clubs but, until they are CERTAIN of their SL status, they cant prepare fully for the following season, which puts the clubs in the MPG even further behind the rest.

So why have a Canadian team if, in your humble opinion is too cold to play in their country when the rugby season is running in the host country?

How many more goalposts do you want moving to accomodate Toronto.

Join the league by all means, but at least operate within the guidelines like all the other clubs do.

#I think that they were INVITED to join the league, without which there would be no "North American Experiment" and anyone with half an ounce of local knowledge regarding the climate would realise that they (Toronto) couldnt play their games in Toronto during the first part of the season.
You need to take issue with "the fat controller". regarding them being invited to join the party.

On the plus side, it means that WE can visit in the warm weather rather than freezing our whatsits off.
It's a cracking ciity and well worth a visit.

You may be a bit like Crocodile Dundee, lost in a large city

Been there, done that

Most English and French fans have not been to Toronto. Give them a chance to enjoy that city, especially in the spring and summer.

Why should your fortunate experience of having been to Toronto be even relevant to causing the RFL to limit the life experience opportunities available to 99% of northern hemisphere rugby league fans?

A very valid point, about opportunities for RL fans to enjoy the experience of a 'jolly' in Toronto. Indeed, I have no doubt that most English and French fans have not been to Beijing and, given the current make up of the TW team, we may as well have started a club there!



However, on your final point, I wonder how many of the 99% of northern hemisphere RL fans, would be able to afford the expense of a 'jolly' to Toronto?

I didn't think SL was boring last season when Cas were doing their stuff (bear in mind I write as a Fev fan so I'm hardly likely to be biased towards Cas.) Now Saints seem to have taken up the baton. But from what I've seen most sides are still playing five drives and a kick. I watched the Aviva highlights on C5 last night. They appear to be playing more football than we are at the moment. We used to call Union kick and clap, our game seems to be degenerating into that at the moment. You see more football in the Championship.

This is a Rugby League forum, not a travel expo.....you are Judith Chalmers and I claim my £5!

Toronto were hailed as the saviour of the sport who would open up opportunities to generate more revenue......the only opportunity to generate new revenue so far has been to employ a few Leigh rejects and some pretty average ANZACS.

They will take their place in SL next year and as a result (unless they replace Catalans), the average crowds will be down in 2019, the TV figures will be down with one less game shown (if they replace Catalans) and Betfred will be scratching their heads as to why they are paying to sponsor a 12 team league with 2 clubs of no interest to them (if they don't replace Catalans).......meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend...
...3k there apparently.......

...did they bring the hot-dog canon?

......but I have noticed that their press releases are getting more "us and them" in their stance, claiming that the team have been away from home for 4 long months, when in reality, most have been at home with their mums



Next year in SL, Toronto will need to average 10,000 fans paying £20 sterling as the average price to break even. £4,000,000 is the figure needed to sustain a SL club and that's a bottom 4 SL club at that.....if Argyle wants to challenge for honours, then he'll need deep pockets and be prepared to throw another £4,000,000 at them to compete with the big 3 or 4 in SL.....and he's still got to stick to the cap. Given London couldn't get star players to travel 200 miles, his ability to get Sam Burgess to move to Toronto for less money will be key.......and that ain't happening.

To clarify, the average price of a ticket to Toronto's next home game is CA$25...OR £14.......Nobody here has denied that their claimed attendances last year included every Free ticket they had given away, so the reality is that Argyle is looking at a similar or worse ticketing income next year to London Broncos in SL but with TWICE the expense......if not more......and there's no sign of the TV deal or any Major Sponsors other than the contra airline deal. Then there's the subject of when they start paying regular season games at Home next year.....whomever is at the wrong end of SL will squeal a lot more about unfair advantages of blocks of games.....after all, relegation is a massive drop in income and no club can truly afford to lose 1 million in revenue......so, do Toronto give up home advantage for maybe their first 2 or 3 games....Mid March sees temps of 7 degrees in Toronto.....About the same as Liverpool in Feb.......and then I'd make them play Home and Away....let's see how many of the imaginary 7,000 will pay ca$37 to sit in an uncovered stand for the visit of Salford.......I can get tickets to the Blue Jays for ca$10........
...the TV deal and Sponsors are nowhere to be seen.......and this sport that is new to the city needs to get 10,000 punters to pay nearly 4 times the cost of a Blue Jays ticket to stand a chance of surviving.

I wish them all the luck in the world, but the reality is that with a level playing field and a level cap, they will struggle to survive as anything other than a rich-mans plaything and a place where pensionable players go to earn a crust.

I think you quoted the wrong post. That has nothing to do with what I have been posting about.

I agree about the difficulty in recruiting players but no P&R system we have used would eradicate that. The same with players gravitating towards the teams that are usually at the top. It's part of the reason those clubs are usually near the top and generally always have been. The tendency since the introduction of the split season has been for clubs facing the qualifiers (from both divisions) to strengthen using short contracts that then either get renewed if a SL place is secured or are not if it isn't. Not an ideal situation but whenever there is risk of the drop then we will get this issue until such time as the sport is cashed up enough for the second tier to be full time too so as to remove the necessity for wages to drop or players to be shed.

Quote ="Call Me God"meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend... ...3k there apparently....... ...did they bring the hot-dog canon? '" https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes ... 4667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425

Quote ="Call Me God"meanwhile, in Toronto, their is quite literally no interest...see an action pic taken from the match at the weekend... ...3k there apparently....... ...did they bring the hot-dog canon? '" https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes ... 4667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425

Bless....I like the trees in the stadium (ha ha), what type are they ? Have they been imported from the UK, in a kind of 'role reversal' way. Are they treated as if they are 'special trees' and also we should be grateful for them, and that the TREE organization will do anything to make sure that they 'prosper'. I think I am correct in my assumption....



Rergards

Percy Thrower

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" And? 3K in the one stand looks good, of that there is no doubt, but let's see if the videos are posted after the next few home games and if they pan around the entire stadium.....9,600 capacity Google toronto wolfpack v doncaster 16 SEP 2017.......watch the 18 minutes to 22......Doncaster try. Half full in the stand opposite the cameras......watch the conversion....half empty stand where the camera are......claimed attendance ‎8,546.....that's 1,000 empty seats? Youtube Toronto Wolfpack vs Oxford RLFC in home debut - May06 2017.....6,281.....How big is that BEET TENT There are plenty of other examples of the Wolfpack using smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of their "reach".....They claim one stand holds 6k the other 3k...... those stands look pretty identical to me, so 4,500 in each..........they lie about attendances.....it's a simple but reliable fact.

Quote ="ThePrinter"https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardHeyes/status/993110324667670528 https://mobile.twitter.com/renimaitua/s ... 2878823425'" And? 3K in the one stand looks good, of that there is no doubt, but let's see if the videos are posted after the next few home games and if they pan around the entire stadium.....9,600 capacity Google toronto wolfpack v doncaster 16 SEP 2017.......watch the 18 minutes to 22......Doncaster try. Half full in the stand opposite the cameras......watch the conversion....half empty stand where the camera are......claimed attendance ‎8,546.....that's 1,000 empty seats? Youtube Toronto Wolfpack vs Oxford RLFC in home debut - May06 2017.....6,281.....How big is that BEET TENT There are plenty of other examples of the Wolfpack using smoke and mirrors to hide the reality of their "reach".....They claim one stand holds 6k the other 3k...... those stands look pretty identical to me, so 4,500 in each..........they lie about attendances.....it's a simple but reliable fact.

Just providing more footage of the crowd there....or are you the only person allowed to post an image of a Toronto crowd on here?

So did the Wolfpack. That much that they counted them as part of the attendance



Not at all......it's just videos like that were few and far between last year. Instead we relied on TV footage to disprove the lies they spouted.

They're videos just shot by fans in attendances on social media, I'm sure you could've found the exact same IF you wanted to last year. For all your criticism of their attendances last year, the number of just 3k for this game actually looks pretty fair given those clips so you just sound bitter and agenda driven trying to paint it as a lie with a selective single photograph.

It's like he has an agenda or something ?

Yes, he is just a bitter, twisted man. London Broncos/Harlequins fans can testify to this from his previous incarnation as Gutterfax.

He wants all expansion to fail. If he gets his way the game will continue to decline in the northern hemisphere.

I suppose its down to what context the word "expansion' is being used in. As Perez stated in order to get the TV broadcasters/sponsors on board would take 5/6 teams to join the party. There would be no NA league for at least 10 years, all would remain transatlantic as that aspect appeals to TV broadcasters/sponsors.

Most Cities in North America don't have more than one team in the same sport. Placement of those 5/6 clubs is paramount. They can't place 3 clubs in a relative vicinity of each other, for one the game just isn't popular enough,but the main reason being the paying customer is not accustom to that scenario.

So you are basically left with 5/6 transatlantic clubs,and the logistical nightmare that will go with that.

Just my opinion of course,but I really don't see what other options they have short term. Long term 10 + years with investment if they get these clubs going is a possibility. Just not sure the plan is going to form at present.