I'm curious as to why you make it sound that the 'big' clubs are somehow at fault here?

Surely, it's upto the other clubs to find owners/money that will make them capable of competing and not just there to make up the numbers?

If Hull KR's, Huddersfield's, Wakefield's, etc, owners aren't able to compete and provide a competitive league, then surely it's up to those running SL to find clubs who believe they can, and to give them sufficient time to do it. If after that time they haven't, then they can have their licences removed and other interested parties can then get a go?

The only "fault" of the big clubs here, is wanting an ever increasing share of any TV contract to be kept in SL, with little regard for the rest of the game and wanting to shrink the league to allow themselves an bigger slice of the cake.
It is just possible that it would suit, Saints, Leeds Wire etc to jettison their poor SL relations and replace them with more N. American clubs, providing of course that the newbies, like Toronto originally said, dont want a slice of the TV revenue - allowing them to take an even larger share.
There is a potential problem here and that is the needs of Sky and whether they would be able to still show the number of games required to make RL a worthwhile investment.

Just for the record, there are no licenses to be revoked, we are still running (theoretically) a promotion/ relegation system

True. Though, as I've said before, it's a massively outdated system, which provides no stability or benefit to the competition.

Surely a system where we have 10, 11 or 12 clubs, who are all almost equal financially, is a better competition than one where many of the club's are just there to make up numbers or, in Donnyman's words, simply there for the big clubs to 'slaughter'?

Ultimately, what most RL fans want is a competition where ALL of the sides have a realistic chance of winning a trophy at the start of a season. Admittedly, you will always have at least a couple of sides who become whipping boys as the season goes on, but the same sides (usually the promoted side and it's why promotion/relegation is a folly) year on year, becomes very tedious, especially if the trophies are being kept among 3 or 4 of the same sides.

Where those 10, 11 or 12 clubs are based is mainly irrelevent. It's actually finding the backers to finance them. There is no point having a large potential fanbase if the club itself as no money to run itself and compete.

Maybe in an ideal world, all clubs would be roughly "equal" but, life isn't like that.
If you go back through the history books, there are plenty of different clubs who have been champions or won the cup(s).

The problem with things now is, even with a salary cap in place, it's more and more about which club has the deepest pockets and there is a fair amount of disparity in this.
Mind you, in fairly recent times, we've had Cas, Catalan and Huddersfield winning stuff so, there is hope for all clubs.

As a sport, I think that the consensus is that there should be a pathway between the different leagues, which was lost for a while under the previous franchise/licensing model.

Despite Donnys (very) regular threads, the game has to find a way to broaden it's appeal, either in the UK or overseas and preferably both. However, to do this successfully could change the very game that we all love, which is probably the very reason that we remain so strongly rooted to the M62 corridor.

There is a pathway in the franchise model. And it's probably a much more stable and positive one for the sport.

If you make the licensing every 3, 5 or 10 years, then it gives a potential new side that specified amount of time to actually prepare themselves in order to hit the ground running, with regards to squad preparation and getting finances in order.

Presently, a side gets promoted in October and has 3 months to try to put together a competitive team. It's almost impossible seeing as most of the decent quality players are already tied up elsewhere by then. All that happens is the promoted side gets everyone else's cast offs and maybe the 2 or 3 good(ish) players from the relegated side they are replacing.

Like I've said before, relegation/promotion just encourages an environment of mediocrity, as most club's first instinct is to simply survive, rather than aspire. Allow clubs to create a base without the shadow of a relegation axe hanging over them and you are far more likely to see stability financially.

In a sense, I agree with you.
However, every club that had aspirations to be in SL, would be totally unproven in the top flight.
The disparate needs of being in The Championship and being successful in SL, means that ANY application for the top flight would be based on conjecture.
How many S/T could they sell, how many fans will turn up to games.
The only constants would be the stadia and previous financial record.

If you look at the current wanabe's, Leigh, Widnes, London, Fev, Toulouse.
You could make a case for each one but, would any (or all) of them be stronger than what we have and in the case of any N. American clubs, you really are talking crystal ball stuff.
As we've seen with Toronto, they've had decent crowds at home and they appeared to be backed by a (very) wealthy individual and yet, look what has happened in only their first SL season - talk about the wheels coming off.

Questions were raised about their long term viability and yet they breezed into the comp.
Also, how would they fare on "player development" when there just isn't any and wont be in the short term, there is no mechanism for ANY meaningful player development over there. Period.

Just like making staff redundant, a score chart can be contrived to benefit any club and it would be the importance attached to certain criteria that would get a particular club the nod.

Also, talking about stability, what would happen to any club that was effectively kicked out of the top flight ?
Very likely they would go to the wall.
At least with P/R there is a chance to regain a spot in the top flight.
Under some kind of "assessment", just how would you rank say, Leigh v Ottawa or London v New York ?

How can you progressively sign Superleague players in the Championship? How come Wakefield, Hull.KR, Hull and Huddersfield didn't find it "almost impossible" staying up.

Leigh avoided traditional relegation as well, as they did not come bottom in SL.....

So there are FIVE clubs who found it very much "possible"

Having said that Lenegan has proposed P&R every other year to give promoted clubs a fairer chance to stay up and probably a club outstripping it's championship rivals more time to prepare and build.

So what you are saying is North American clubs just won't develop players and their financial support is very much in doubt? You ask if five current European clubs could have a case made for them???.......

And you leave out Newcastle who have.....

1.....A long term multi-Millionaire owner
2......A decent ground and a growing fan base
3.....Have hosted magic weekends that are to assist development
4...... Have a full player development system
5...... Would take superleague into a new area and boost the game there
6....... Have openly applied to join

No need to reply to this one if it just the usual "I don't think they are ready yet" stuff......

They are more ready than the five you named.......

1....How can you predict any owner is 'long term'? Koukash wasn't.O'Connor wasn't...
2... Toronto had the same.a ground suitable to host Super League games.
3....How,exactly,did Magic Weekends,held at Manchester and Liverpool,'assist development'?
4...Newcastle developed any players currently playing in Super League?
5....They have already had a Super League club in the area.....They were sacrificed for a M62 club that had paid their players too much and then had dwindling attendances.
6.....They claim to WANT to be in Super League in the year 2030.

Maybe the Toronto owner has more ambition?

The idea that selecting people for redundancy "fairly" through a score chart mad me

laugh

sorry

....... I've seen that done many a time, you pick who you don't like and work out the criteria to support the dismissal!!

I wouldn't rank any club who cannot even join in the assessment process. You may remember when Ottawa were launched and not a wealthy director in sight? Same for New York, no sign of any rich owner actually standing there saying I will put the $$$Millions in............

At least Beaumont and Hughes would openly account for them backing them....How can you promote smoke and mirrors to Superleague?

Members of the media were introduced to Toronto’s prospective new owner Carlo LiVolsi on Wednesday. These are the main points he made, no need for the usual suspects to troll it into an "expansion" thread......TWP already exist, and fans are keen to know what's gone down....No need to hide it



Can you outline how you believe you can make this club profitable given the amount of money it has taken to get it where it is so far? I own a brand that I believe will help monetise the league and the team. It’s called Wolf Grooming, we’re going to launch next year in the UK and this brand itself will help catapult into a marketing machine. I believe that by taking the brand itself, building a story around the guys, the players and injecting that into the core of what Super League is today will help it succeed.

We’ve heard a lot about what Super League and the RFL want to see from you, what do you need from them to make this takeover take place? My opinion is we should be treated equally and as fairly as the other 11 clubs. Wolfpack pays for every team to travel to and from Toronto. That’s not fair but that was what was agreed upon, so fine. When you look at the team itself and how it’s galvanized the Super League and attracted more teams to the Super League, it’s been a great success. why should the club have to pay twice the amount of every other club to participate in this league?.

From a personal level and as a businessman, what’s your opinion on the way Toronto Wolfpack has acted in terms of players and companies not being paid? “It’s disgusting.

Will all the outstanding debts be paid if your takeover goes through, and what if Super League say no to you being readmitted? From my perspective, if we’re awarded the club, we will pay all obligations to the players. I don’t know why Super League would say no, I really don’t understand why because you’ve spent four years marketing this whole thing to get to Super League, it’s got a tremendous fanbase,

Can you tell us a bit more about this Wolf Grooming product and how it will benefit Super League rather than just Toronto Wolfpack? The goal here is to partner with the Super League and its teams and almost become a distributor of this product and market them to the 20 million eyeballs that see Super League through a year and build almost like what Red Bull has done with Formula 1 I believe we can build this into a $100 million dollar revenue-wise for Super League over five years.

Can you tell us about the talks you had with Ralph Rimmer and Robert Elstone last week? I understand the position they’re in but you have to look at the two and separate the two. Do they feel the team was a positive influence for Super League? Yes. Then you look at the other side. The issues are all easily fixed because I’m solid financially

Is it Super League or bust?
It really is. It’s Super League or bust, there’s no other alternative from my perspective, I’m not interested in anything other than that.We have a five-year plan we’ve put forward. In five years time we want to win the whole thing.

Apparently four clubs "categorically" reject any idea of TWP returning to Superleague.

This could mean that TWP are back on a 7-4 vote.

This also could mean that there is an impasse, past SL votes involve the clubs voting (e.g. for the last SKY deal) and then running a second and final vote where losing clubs vote "for" to provide a show of unanimity (albeit Koukash ignored this tradition)

We shall see

I thought this was an Rfl decision thereby not needing the clubs opinions

You posted on TRL you thought they had abandoned P&R permanently.

The reply you got had to be deleted by the moderator.

Why not just have a proper conversation?

So, what is "wolf grooming" an how will it be attractive to benefit the rest of SL ?

Apparently, all 11 superleague clubs want TWP in SL next season. That is great news

For an individual who doesn't want clubs in Super League from off-shore,the OP does seem mightily obsessed by clubs based off-shore.

I'm quite surprised the individual club owners from along the M62 haven't been quoted;as yet.

Don't those individuals dictate to Elstone and the governing bodies?

These off-shore clubs seem to attract wealthy people.

Have Hull KR got a new owner,yet?

Must be a reason why wealthy folk find these off-shore clubs so attractive.

Perhaps they just attract supporters who enjoy the sport...

You are a bar pot for a start Hull kr one of the 11 will not want them back that’s for sure

WUM

Quote ="Tigerade"So, what is "wolf grooming" an how will it be attractive to benefit the rest of SL ?'" just picked up your question amongst the usual unpleasant trolling.......... https://www.torontowolfpack.com/toronto ... -strength/ This nonsense is a re-run of the CBD Oil TWP were promoting (as above) a couple of years ago and boasting it would make a fortune. It appears the potential new owner (from part owner) is offering a major sponsorship to Superleague (which they don't have only some mushy peas) where they can become the "Toronto Snake Oil Superleague" in some sort of an exclusive deal where all the $Millions of profits from that brand will go into the games coffers. You couldn't make it up, it appears Livolsi is actually trolling Superleague I really don't know what is going on here, meanwhile Mr. Beaumont seems to be gearing up for a promotion push, so could Xmas come early for him....Who knows

Quote ="Tigerade"So, what is "wolf grooming" an how will it be attractive to benefit the rest of SL ?'" just picked up your question amongst the usual unpleasant trolling.......... https://www.torontowolfpack.com/toronto ... -strength/ This nonsense is a re-run of the CBD Oil TWP were promoting (as above) a couple of years ago and boasting it would make a fortune. It appears the potential new owner (from part owner) is offering a major sponsorship to Superleague (which they don't have only some mushy peas) where they can become the "Toronto Snake Oil Superleague" in some sort of an exclusive deal where all the $Millions of profits from that brand will go into the games coffers. You couldn't make it up, it appears Livolsi is actually trolling Superleague I really don't know what is going on here, meanwhile Mr. Beaumont seems to be gearing up for a promotion push, so could Xmas come early for him....Who knows

Appreciate your efforts but even if your reply is negative and insulting it's actually a result for him.

So basically his grand plan is to turn SL into some kind of pyramid marketing scheme. Wonderful.

With the events of the past few months' TWP should be cut adrift form SL and there is nothing in their new owners spiel that really gives any confidence that they will last.
The main issue for RL is that running with 11 clubs leaves an imbalance in magic, which corrupts the whole fixture program.

If 4 clubs have already said no to their readmission, it could also mean an 11 - 0 vote ?? (unless of course the other 7 have already said yes ?)

Well that's right Mr. D.

But for some reason the reaction was not to laugh and say goodbye to them on the spot? Instead there's an idea that the majority of the 11 clubs with a vote are in favour of their return, with four clubs vehemently against them.

That idea (of a 7-4 vote in favour of their return) came from Mick Gledhill so it may not have any credibility. Anyway Eamon McManus said some time ago when TWP were leading the Championship...

[i"Toronto is a team of antipodeans and English players owned by an Australian in canada, We would all like to see the game grow there and the club is producing a supporter base which is very good, They (however) have got to start producing players from Canada but they are facing strong competition from Rugby Union. There is already a route to 100 semi professional Union clubs over there (sic). And the climate is a massive problem,for the first quarter of the season they can't play home games. It's very difficult but you can't change the rules of the competition to suit one club"
[/i

We know that SL bosses tend to take it in turns to be spokespersons for Superleaue, so I don't think for a second this was McManus's personal view. More a reflection of the collective SL view.I also don't think Brian Carney giving McDermott a very hard time tonight was his own particular point of view, as at the time of the interview SKY were lining his pocket to do their bidding.

But yes the idea that they are coming back on a "pyramid marketing scheme" appears absurd especially as TWP have tried this tactic before when they were marketing Cannabis oil that obviously didn't bring in the $Millions....

I like to think Derek Beaumont investing heavily in Leigh is a real signal of where this is going.............

Great to hear from and speak to you.......

Quote ="Derwent"So basically his grand plan is to turn SL into some kind of pyramid marketing scheme. Wonderful.'" https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/wolfpa ... 542qn.html Check this out Mr. D. more wonderment

Quote ="Derwent"So basically his grand plan is to turn SL into some kind of pyramid marketing scheme. Wonderful.'" https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/wolfpa ... 542qn.html Check this out Mr. D. more wonderment