Hardly a surprise given the stadium is 25 miles out of town. Would Halifax have sold 3,200 tickets in the week leading up to a home game at an alternative venue?

How would Fax know?, they are not rebuilding their stadium or relaying a pitch.

It’s a good job, I remember Halifax taking several years to finish building their main stand.

I am well aware that deals acquired to date concerning Toronto are of low value etc. etc. They are a new start up and the first such club in their country, they are hardly going to get a queue of companies waiting to fund them through sponsorship, tv deals etc. right now. They have had the foresight to set up from the beginning avenues for them to build recognition within their own and the UK markets that will (it is hoped) lead to more lucrative deals in the future. I did mention that their presence provides the opportunity (and that's all it is atm an opportunity) to tap new markets, sponsors and so on, not that it already is. I have selected the most relevant part of your post in the quote, this is only year 2. Nobody would or should expect any club to be contributing as much as established clubs straight away in terms of player development. I am being realistic on the likely timescales for producing players, it will take 10 years or more but if the club continues to exist then it will happen.

I don't dispute that the Toronto club may not succeed ultimately nor do I assume that they will fail. I just hope that they do succeed, some are worried about a detrimental effect on some established clubs, some people seem to want them to fail. Opinions differ, c'est la vie.

That wasn't the point. They averaged (according to published figures) home crowds of around 7,000 last year, with around half of those being complimentary tickets (of which many may not have actually turned up for the game), and had around 650 season ticket holders. I guess that if the freebies have stopped now, then we might get a more realistic view of local interest in RL. Having been starved of live RL for so long, it's either going to be a case of folk desperate to see a live game (when a 25 mile trip means nothing) or they'll just have lost interest.

Tbh, I thought they had more season ticket holders last year (they were very cheap at around $199.99/£115).

Source: [urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42702631[/url

What do Leigh bring?

Regards

King James

Contradiction here. Do you really know what you're talking about?



After reading your quote above,what does anybody bring?

1) at least 500 away fans to each game (even in the championship) 2) don't ask for special treatment (i.e. 12 games away, then 12 at home) or ask not to appear in the challenge cup 3) when Barrow had to play Toronto away in the league one play offs, multi millionaire owner Argyle did not pay for their flights, they had to set up a justgiving fund to help finance the trip. (no such problem at Leigh) 4) we have an under 17's academy set up 5) we sign players and use them, not 'ship them out on loan/get rid after a couple of months) 6) set up the Leigh Centurions community trust over 10 years ago. https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/leigh-community-trust/ 7) we have superb modern stadia facilities at the Leigh Sports Village, in which the club have a 12.5% stake a local 'born & bred' owner who cares passionately about his club. That enough for you, fake expansion lover !

1) at least 500 away fans to each game (even in the championship) 2) don't ask for special treatment (i.e. 12 games away, then 12 at home) or ask not to appear in the challenge cup 3) when Barrow had to play Toronto away in the league one play offs, multi millionaire owner Argyle did not pay for their flights, they had to set up a justgiving fund to help finance the trip. (no such problem at Leigh) 4) we have an under 17's academy set up 5) we sign players and use them, not 'ship them out on loan/get rid after a couple of months) 6) set up the Leigh Centurions community trust over 10 years ago. https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/leigh-community-trust/ 7) we have superb modern stadia facilities at the Leigh Sports Village, in which the club have a 12.5% stake a local 'born & bred' owner who cares passionately about his club. That enough for you, fake expansion lover !

What does your team bring? Who is your team anyway?

All taken on board, but my concern is that the main driver has gone, the sponsor is saving 50% this year on last years flight deal, they seem intent on ignoring the salary cap, they have been allowed to play their games in blocks which is 100% advantageous to them as they will face 10 sides at home who will all be fresh off the plane whilst they will be acclimatised, they lied about attendances at games last year and for all their good intentions, it'll take 3 decades to deliver "home grown players".

Their constant bombardment of good news on social media and other channels is well done, but the reality is they are preaching to the choir.....of the 700 or so ST holders there last year, most would have been ex-pats from the North of England. A mate of mine lives just outside Toronto and he was a hardcore Bradford fan when we used to work together....he said you wouldn't know about the wolfpack unless you went looking for them......he didn't now they existed until I asked if he'd been to a game. They owe their kit suppliers money from 2017.......this is a substantiated fact as the same brokers supply London......their are rumours of players being "uncontrollable" when back in Toronto and whilst it is nice to have a side outside of the heartlands, they will I suspect go the way of PSG and Crusaders once the emperor is seen to be wearing nothing at all......because the TV execs and Sponsors could find neither Wigan, St Helens on a map as they can't currently find Dewsbury and Swinton.

Toronto's Canadian Football team have the lowest crowd average (14,000) in that comp, despite making the finals last year. Trying to get tickets to the Maple Leafs on the other hand is much harder, but they still only average 19k...the Blue Jays average 40k, Toronto FC 27,000.....the FC, the CFL and the Jays are head to head against the Wolfpack.....without free tickets, of which there were thousands last year, the real attendances would have been 2 or 3k.......whilst the wage bill was SL standard.....without Perez pressing the flesh and doing the PR, the wheels will soon come off the bandwagon and not even 1.8 million of SKY SL money in 2019 will be enough......David Hughes personally sunk 2 million a year into the Broncos in SL with comparable attendances to Toronto but without the other overheads the club has........how long before Argyle splits? Then what......if we've lost a Halifax or a Leigh, we've lost 2 clubs that provide a pathway for young English talent all because we were told there was a mega-bucks TV deal in the offing and we believed them with no proof?

I don't hope they fail, but I will be stunned if they succeed in doing anything other than giving us something else to whinge about whilst attendances and TV audiences continue to plummet back home.

There's a lot of rumour there. A lot of speculating.

Them "only getting 2-3k" if you stio away all the free tickets is not only majorly speculative, it's not actually that bad in comparison to other Championship clubs and especially to new clubs.

To say their main fans are ex-pats and their attendances are all made up is just pushing false facts.

The breaking the salary cap is just speculation also, pushed by those that just need to think they're cheating to get where they are.

Why would you lose Halifax or Leigh because of an expansion club like Toronto? That's ridiculous.

All in all, it doesn't sound like you don't hope they fail at all. It sounds very much like you want them to, given how easily you are willing to push speculation and gossip as fact.

this

Quote ="Budgiezilla"1) at least 500 away fans to each game (even in the championship) 2) don't ask for special treatment (i.e. 12 games away, then 12 at home) or ask not to appear in the challenge cup 3) when Barrow had to play Toronto away in the league one play offs, multi millionaire owner Argyle did not pay for their flights, they had to set up a justgiving fund to help finance the trip. (no such problem at Leigh) 4) we have an under 17's academy set up 5) we sign players and use them, not 'ship them out on loan/get rid after a couple of months) 6) set up the Leigh Centurions community trust over 10 years ago. https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/leigh-community-trust/ 7) we have superb modern stadia facilities at the Leigh Sports Village, in which the club have a 12.5% stake a local 'born & bred' owner who cares passionately about his club. That enough for you, fake expansion lover ! '" Why are Leigh fans so worried about other sides getting promoted, and Leigh remaining in the Championship. Although your passion for your club is commendable, why is every other club in the wrong. There is an issue about whether we should be expanding RL to far flung places. However, IF this is the right move, then lets get on with it. We didnt have fans of other League 1 clubs moaning daily about Toronto having "unfair" advantage and "nobody" wanted them (Toronto) fast tracked to SL so, in essence, we have what "everybody wanted", which is Toronto working their way through the leagues and having to gain promotion via the middle 8's. I just dont get the constant anti Toronto stuff that is posted on here every day of the week. IF they gain promotion, good luck to them and if not, then another club may get a shot at the "big time" and if they do, good luck to them. The middle 8's look like it will have 2 British clubs and 2 Overseas clubs (possibly) and if Leigh are in there, it will be up to them to perform and on the plus side, you have been there, read the book and bought the T shirt so, it should be advantage Leigh. It seems that you will only be happy when any club outside the M62 corridor is jettisoned from the "domestic" competition and RL again becomes a Northern Sport for Norther People. One day you may get your wish because, as things stand, the game is going backwards and without some new life being breathed into the game, it could well revert to a semi pro competition. I'm not saying that Toronto, London or Toulouse are the answer but, Leigh and/or Fev getting promotes will do nothing to advance the game as a whole. Enjoy the ride and take what comes.

Quote ="Budgiezilla"1) at least 500 away fans to each game (even in the championship) 2) don't ask for special treatment (i.e. 12 games away, then 12 at home) or ask not to appear in the challenge cup 3) when Barrow had to play Toronto away in the league one play offs, multi millionaire owner Argyle did not pay for their flights, they had to set up a justgiving fund to help finance the trip. (no such problem at Leigh) 4) we have an under 17's academy set up 5) we sign players and use them, not 'ship them out on loan/get rid after a couple of months) 6) set up the Leigh Centurions community trust over 10 years ago. https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/leigh-community-trust/ 7) we have superb modern stadia facilities at the Leigh Sports Village, in which the club have a 12.5% stake a local 'born & bred' owner who cares passionately about his club. That enough for you, fake expansion lover ! '" Why are Leigh fans so worried about other sides getting promoted, and Leigh remaining in the Championship. Although your passion for your club is commendable, why is every other club in the wrong. There is an issue about whether we should be expanding RL to far flung places. However, IF this is the right move, then lets get on with it. We didnt have fans of other League 1 clubs moaning daily about Toronto having "unfair" advantage and "nobody" wanted them (Toronto) fast tracked to SL so, in essence, we have what "everybody wanted", which is Toronto working their way through the leagues and having to gain promotion via the middle 8's. I just dont get the constant anti Toronto stuff that is posted on here every day of the week. IF they gain promotion, good luck to them and if not, then another club may get a shot at the "big time" and if they do, good luck to them. The middle 8's look like it will have 2 British clubs and 2 Overseas clubs (possibly) and if Leigh are in there, it will be up to them to perform and on the plus side, you have been there, read the book and bought the T shirt so, it should be advantage Leigh. It seems that you will only be happy when any club outside the M62 corridor is jettisoned from the "domestic" competition and RL again becomes a Northern Sport for Norther People. One day you may get your wish because, as things stand, the game is going backwards and without some new life being breathed into the game, it could well revert to a semi pro competition. I'm not saying that Toronto, London or Toulouse are the answer but, Leigh and/or Fev getting promotes will do nothing to advance the game as a whole. Enjoy the ride and take what comes.

Leigh fans are not worried,where are you getting this from? You only need to READ Budgiezilla's and CMG above post above, to see the facts about Leigh and Toronto,That's all. FWIW - No championship side atm is anywhere near good enough for SL.

Toronto and Toulouse are. But you wouldn't know, sitting on a cardboard box in Sefton Street.

No they are not.How would you know living in a coal bunker in Chorley.

I agree with a lot of what you say, I'm not worried at all, after all Leigh have only spent 2 seasons in Super League, we are used to being in the championship .
But what I will say is, I am for more interested in a club with history who have struggled for years, seeing the good times again. (i.e. Bradford, Oldham, York, Halifax, Hunslet Swinton etc) rather than a new club being created in a town/city and financing their way into the middle 8's. If Toronto gain promotion to SL, then they will have earned it. Just not sure why we have a 'planet earth' RFL, it's rather odd...to say the least. Are we that desperate ? Looks like we are...

Did Halifax move all their games to another country, or play home games en block while their stand was being built..

Sorry Jean, they are NOT yet good enough. Granted, they are amongst the best three clubs in the Championship, (with Featherstone) but until they prove themselves in the 'Middle 8's', they have not proved themselves good enough for Super League.

Toronto could be, but they'll have to keep spending and shifting (better) players in and out of the squad to be competitive in the M8's. What could count against them is a lack of consistency in the team, and how that could affect things when they come up against stronger opposition. If Leigh keep on improving then they could be a threat in the M8's, but no other Championship club is anywhere near being able to compete with any current SL team.

Toronto are a good thing, a good thing but only with an open, transparent & honest agenda from the RFL.

Don't ask any heartland Club to blindly accept their ridiculous artificially inflated attendance figures *which should be based on actual purchased & paid for tickets for all clubs, no freebies* only the selectively blind fail to see the reality.

Do not ask those with sense to accept that they could not be pushing the edge re the Salary Cap or that they are playing with more Non Fed players than is permitted for all other clubs.

Do not ask those with any semblance of intelligence to blindly believe that TW have unfairly side stepped their commitment to playing in Canada by staging some of their "Home" games in London, Manchester etc or that it is in any way fair to play en-block & having the definite advantage of a season ending run of home advantage en-block while other clubs play home & away.

Toronto IMHO 'SHOULD' be admitted to SL along with Toulouse, but do not insult our intelligence & rather, be open & honest & submit an agreed plan from the outset, DO NOT in any way ask us to swallow the BS spin that we know is false.

If the RFL had come out & asked the member clubs to allow a stepped introduction of TW & Toulouse & also possibly London then it would more likely *I suspect* to be accepted by fans of heartland clubs 'if' it were honestly & openly communicated.

Let's not pretend this is a level playing field, it never was with Catalans after all, but is it not easier to accept something which can be openly seen than something that is shrouded in smoke & mirrors ?

FWIW, get TW in regardless of their ability to win a MPG, Toulouse also & maybe London but, give them a set framework & a deadline to be SL ready, this will allow them to prepare & invest knowing they are to be admitted.
Do not accept their word they are ready, check, check that their are actually 7,000 paying spectators, make sure that they are operating within the same rules *non fed players etc* as everyone else, be honest *difficult for the RFL* & see the change in perception from fans of other clubs.

Welcome them, but not AT ANY COST !

Indeed there is


Going on the TV evidence, there is not a chance in hell that they averaged at 78% capacity of their "home" ground. But, but telling an untruth and then repeating it, they convinced many RL fans that Canadians love the game.....the reality is that at Brunch-time events in Down Town Toronto fewer than 200 have turned up to watch live tele-casts of the game....those poor RL starved Canadians.....


The falshood about attendances comes from their lies, not mine. As for where their fans originate from, we'll never know because once they are in SL the screens will all go up again and it'll never be made public knowledge until they fold once Argyle leaves.


Quota and Cap suspicions are warranted. Also are the comments regarding cost cutting. A regular Home and Away season would have cost them a lot more than 10 weeks bed and board in Toronto, all in one hit after the majority of the team spent the start of the season staying with their mums!


If the trap door gets pulled up (it will have to, because North Americans don't want, do or understand relegation" then clubs in the lower tiers will wither and vanish as professional entities.



As I said at the top, there is a load of speculation and rumour. The best way for that to stop is for the RFL/SL and the Pack to come clean.

They can start by not lying about attendances.....this weekend they should easily fill Fletchers Fields given their hoardes of fanatics have been starved of live action.....it's a 30 minute drive from downtown Toronto.....I wonder why they haven't been playing there sooner.....hmmmmm....it's a mystery. FWIW, many Torontonians will commute by over an hour to get to work........ Where's Perez gone?.......cryptic "he's a shareholder but not an employee' statements from the club and nothing from him in Boston, Hamilton, NYC or nevernever land........Hmmmm.....more mysteries.

I am not pushing anything as fact other than they owe their kit supplier money....which they do. The Kit Supplier posts on these very boards and will support this. That's why they've the same shirts as last year in their shop and the only new item is a locally sourced scarf....(7,000 fans, surely there's be more for them to buy".....

..as for wanting them to fail? Nope.....I'd love it they went all the way to Old Trafford, but the reality is that if they do, they will do so without a single Canadian playing for them, with an Australian bankrolling them and no sign of any of the mythical broadcast deals or sponsors flocking to our gates.....Remember, the bearded wonder walked us out at Wembley and we made 2 play offs as well as finishing 2nd in the league.....we now play at a wedding venue in the 2nd tier, bankrolled by a bloke with a guilty conscience...Argyle doesn't have a conscience.

How capacity is determined at their venue, I'm unsure. Whether it only includes the two stands or whether it includes the beer garden also, I'd need confirming. But if it doesn't, then that beer garden holds a lot and wild explain why the stands look emptier than you'd think, as well as the notorious late-coming Toronto public.

So just pushing pure speculation doesn't make you appear to be doing more than just pushing your agenda; not to mention the snobbery of only 200 attending live telecasts - maybe others were watching from home?


The falsehood about attendances comes from your speculation and second guessing based on them wanting to fail for some reason.


Ahh, I see. You're making one of those "I'll make a point, but you can't prove that I'm wrong" kind of arguments. A bit like the "chocolate teapot orbiting the sun near Pluto" kind of argument.


Why? Because we can't prove otherwise?
Do they have the same quota rules being an expansion club?
The cap is the same as SL now. I don't think they're paying the same as a SL team currently. I think Leigh probably pay more. Yes, they're making a lot of signings, but they're releasing a lot of players also.
I think cap speculation is again only pushed by those with an agenda.


1) You can only play at certain times of year in Toronto due to the climate, so some exceptions were always going to need to be made.
2) Their home ground being renovated has also required them to request to play away longer. This isn't going to happen every year and other clubs will and do ask for away games at certain times because of this (Leeds, Hull, etc).
3) Considering what the club are paying for (not just their own travel but that of the other teams also), it's fair to say that if they want to look at some ways of cutting costs, I think it's understandable given they're not receiving any funding from the game but are indeed funding others.


Who said the trap door will be pulled up?
And even if it was, I didn't see them wither and die between 2008-2014.
Hyperbole is not an argument.


Ridiculous comment. They don't need to do anything. For you to say they need to come clean already means you've made your mind up. What if they have nothing to come clean about and everything you have said is wrong? You have no facts. People don't need to come out to squash rumours. That's not how the world works.

If you make a claim, it's up to you to prove it, not the others to refute it.


So now you're saying they should over stretch themselves? Why should they have to? They're not needing to prove anything to you. Why risk money on a large stadium (that for all we know could be unavailable) for what is still a club in its early development?

Give over. The standards you're asking of them are not in a par to anyone else. You'd never ask Leigh to play at Old Trafford in the Championship.


More mysteries... or more conspiracies? For someone claiming to be for expansion, you're looking hard to knock it down... even in areas where you have literally no information!


I won't comment on the kit supplying issue because I wouldn't know and aren't willing to speculate. If it's what you have based all the rest of your speculation on though, it's a bloody big leap!


You want then to go all the way to Old Trafford, but even if they do, they don't deserve it basically. Yeah, that sounds like you're all in favour.

You have an agenda. Admit it. Don't sit behind your keyboard pedaling accusations about clubs lying when you can't even be honest on an online message board. You want them to fail because it's not expansion in the way you see fit, and rather than see this succeed, you'd rather they fail in order to prove yourself right. Which club do you support out of interest?


Oh dear. Did the RFL forget to ask him that question when doing their due diligence?

I agree with you.
However, it may become a question of trying to advance the game, raising its profile and increasing revenue or, the game reverting to semi pro status.
Pre Super League, RL was great to watch, you could change ends at HT, mix with opposition fans etc but, Professional sport, like it or not, is all about the money and RL in the UK is going backwards.
How would you suggest that we reverse the trend ?

Super league clubs have been inflating attendances for decades by including freebies and tickets purchased but not used. Now a team from another country do it and the little englanders of Leigh and Halifax get all upset. Work that one out

Regards

King James