Look at what is in front of Leeds fans right now and it goes a long way to explaining why the current 1-4 & 5-8 in the playoffs is putting people off forking out for many SL games.

They are 4th; they wont come any higher unless the top 3 all implode, and they wont come 5th. So, they have 3 fixtures which wont mean anything to where they finish. Then they have an away game which simply decides whether their next game will be home or away ..... and then they get to their first proper knockout game. Why should any player put himself in a position over the next 4 games whereby he could miss the knockout games? Why should BM ask them to try 100%? And, why should any Leeds fan fork out £20 a game for 4 fixtures which don't actually mean diddly to the season?

Other than Sky who stupidly think saturation playoff games are a good thing, does anyone think the top 8 should make the playoffs? - it's ruining the league. There was more incentive when only top 6 went through, and when finishing in the top 2 gave you a direct route to the GF. It made teams try properly all season.

Surely Sky have enough brains to realise 5 games in front of full grounds at the end of a well attended regular season is better than 9 games and a regular season played out in front of mainly empty stands!

I'm not moaning, just commenting on a thread about declining crowds to add my thoughts as to why this is the case.

The 'stop moaning' attitude is hardly constructive.

For info, as I said, the odd blow out score isn't an issue, it's the balance that is currently wrong - there are too many low intensity, low quality games with the current structure. The top teams are that far ahead of the bottom, and having an 8 team play-off means that the top teams can afford to take it easy for large parts of the season - that is an issue.

Leeds have shown for the past few seasons, and Saints are doing it this year - they can afford to be barely average all year and still comfortably make the play offs - that is wrong!

The devaluing of the SL product is definitely a major issue IMO, though the basis for that devaluation has been structural... eg, licensing... 14 teams... Top 8 play off system, etc. This has resulted in a competition which has increasingly lacked quality, meaning and intensity, and which rewards mediocrity instead.

The proliferation of cheap season tickets offers... bogof, groupon, wowcher... is the desperate response to those structural problems highlighted above which only serve to further devalue the SL product, but this time in monetary terms. And yes, I'd also agree that these issues have most definitely played a huge role in the competition and it's inability to attract a major sponsor.

If the SL product really was as brilliant as some claim it to be, SL attendances wouldn't be nosediving, season tickets wouldn't have to be so cheap and clubs wouldn't have to hand out cheap ticket offers via groupon, wowcher, or on a bogof or buddy fiver basis.

I don't believe it's primarily the economy to blame for all these cheap offers either. It's because the RFL and the clubs themselves know deep down the SL product and it's current licensed 14 team, top 8 play-off structure doesn't provide an interesting regular season of the requisite quality and intensity to attract enough fans for 13 home games unless they are given the lot for a very cheap price.

On top of the cheap season tickets, we are now witnessing an increasing number of ticket offers for individual regular season fixtures because fans have got that used to the product being devalued in so many ways... structurally, on the pitch and pricewise... they now balk at paying full price. We know this is true because you only have to check out the dreadful attendances in the SL play-offs or in the Challenge Cup rounds and semi finals (ie, the only remaining meaningful fixtures) to gauge the true popularity of the sport these days.

If ever anybody is looking for a great example of a circular argument. See above.

[url=http://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/2013/01/no-title-sponsor-no-problem-says-rugby-football-league-boss/What a load of tripe![/url

I'e no idea whether League 2 in soccer is dross or not, but if it is dross quality-wise then at least it's meaningful dross (all fixtures count for something in the race for either promotion or the avoidance of relegation) as opposed to the licensed meaningless dross which encapsulates the SL product at this present time.

and......

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this - for me, the biggest problem is the 8 team play-off. It's too easy for the bigger clubs to stroll through the season, which then has a knock on effect, as the bottom clubs get a bit of an easier ride through the regular season whilst the top clubs don't 'put their all in' - A top 5 or 6 play-off would mean that a team like Leeds couldnt afford to take it easy in games against Salford, Cas, Widnes etc, meaning those teams would have to improve their standards, as they'd be playing a full strength, fully commited Leeds, rather than a half baked, half d Leeds.

As Tre Cool pointed out, the cost of attending a SuperLeague game in comparison to other sports is relatively low, and even with the current economy, is good value for money. Therefore I'd agree that the economy certainly isnt the main factor. If the product was as good as it could and should be, people would still find the money to attend the games. However, with the current structure, and the current economy, it easy to see why people would choose to spend their hard earned another way.

Were you under the impression there was automatic promotion and relegation from and to League 2 football?

Follow that logic through and you would have more half-baked half-d teams who were playing meaningless fixtures as fewer would be playing for the play-offs and only a few clubs are effected (to their massive detriment) by relegation.

put it another way, would we have seen two close fought fixtures between Leeds and Wakefield in the last few weeks of this year under a top 5 system? Or would we have seen a couple of walkovers with no intensity as Wakefield were safe from relegation and nowhere near the play-offs?

Whilst Leeds wouldn’t be able to take it easy against Wakefield/Salford/Hull/Cas/Bradford. Those teams would certainly be able to take it easy against Leeds.

That's utter rubbish, there are loads of meaningless games in soccer, at all levels and attendances do not decline because of them. Ditto with the NRL in Oz. It has nothing to do with it. The unfairness of licencing may have put off fans in the lower leagues but for SL it is completely irrelevant. There is a certain apathy from RL fans when it comes to loyalty and commitment. The reason is probably cultural and historical but nothing to do with 'meaningful games'. Whatever that means.

I think to blame 'cultural and historical' reasons for the apathy is burrying your head in the sand.

I've been a season ticket holder for over 20 years, and it's got to the point where I see no advantage in a season ticket, and have started picking and choosing my games. And it's not even the money, I dont want to waste my time travelling to watch Leeds v Salford when the game on the telly is probably going to be a much more intense game. There are many long term fans who are becoming a little dis-illusioned with the low intensity games.



I'd agree with that point, reducing the amount of teams in the play-offs is not the only change needed, but it is certainly one of them.

I think reducing the number of teams in the play-offs is a huge red-herring, as is the cutting of the size of the league, as is a return to any form of P+R, especially the one that we have.

The one and only way we can reduce the number of games which lack intensity, is by improving the standard of the league as a whole. Until we have 12/14 teams who are all roughly the same quality, then we will have games which are ‘meaningless’ and ‘lack intesity’

(also the argument regarding crowds falls apart completely when we remember that last year, under a 14 team, 8 team play-off, franchised league, we set records.)

I don't post on this forum all that much anymore, but I keep an eye on it.

William's use of Saints as an example of the supposed problem is slightly disingenious. I've been watching them since 1992/1993 season. Back then in a year when we ran Wigan close to knock them out of the cup and made the premiership playoffs, Saints home league average was circa 7k and this got me thinking:

Being the sad act that I am (and because I'm sat in a bar on my own in Outer Mongolia right now with little else to do), I've looked back through the stats on this site which go back to 2000 for Superleague. Whilst this year Saints crowds are down a couple of thousand, if we take the current home average of 11160, it is interesting that in the last 13 years, on only 3 other seasons have Saints registered a higher crowd average. These were 2012 (new stadium year), 2010 (final year at Knowsley road, and a contender for the title) and 2007 (finished top of the division, defending title from previous year and cup holders previous year). Contrast that with this year, where until last week, Saints were heading for their worst league finish since the advent of Super league, and with a team and coach who are in a transition year I'm not sure the picture that this thread is trying to paint is accurate. Saints have also suffered teething problems which given the inclement summer last year, were always going to dissuade certain fans from going to the match until they got the issues surrounding weather proofing of the ground sorted. I for one can't wait to go when this is finished as it will make a massive difference to the atmosphere in the ground.

Whilst I agree with William's main thrust (that crowds are down this year) if you look back through the stats for all clubs, you'll see that for the last 17 years since the advent of Super league, the general trend for crowds in the top division for regular season games is to rise steadily by a few hundred to 1000 a year. Saints average has risen from 7k to the point where now we're dissapointed if we don't crack 12k. I recall a time when only games against Wigan and Leeds would top 10k, and the full houses against Wigan on Good Friday or Boxing day did a great deal to hide the 5k gates against lesser sides in our end of season average.

In that time Adult prices for games have risen from £5 to stand at Knowsley Road, to over £20 for a ticket with an equivalent view in the North stand, so somewhere someone's making money as that's easily outstripping inflation! It is now impossible to rock up to a game and occupy an area near the half way line, as all these seats are taken by season ticket holders. I experienced the novelty last season of not being able to make a derby match against Wigan as the game was sold out weeks in advance. As a more casual fan these days due to living in Scotland now, I've been unable to stand and watch my team any more as it's nigh on impossible to get a ticket for the home end terrace. All this would have been unthinkable in 1995. Whilst it's a personal pain for me, in a strange way, I'm glad it's sometimes hard to get a ticket.

Crowds now are far more consistent (bar the odd blip due to blizards) than they used to be. Fans appear now to pick their games far less. Last year I went to see Saints play Wakefield at home at what was a terrible match, and there were 14000 on (and some argument about the gate IIRC, the crowd on this site is 13k and that is the figure I've used). This year the same game got 12k. Apart from last year Saints have never drawn a gate that large against Wakefield in the full time professional era and I would guess not at all since the 1960s. OK 1 - 2k less than last year, but at least 1.5k more than any gate against that team in my living memory.

I know this is focusing on one club, but I know from perusing attendances over the years due to my rather sad analytical nature, that crowds across the board have been creeping up. One could draw an analogy with the stock market: The trend has been to increase year on year if you analyse the data for a 20 year period, however there are blips on the way, such as the crash of a few years ago. If you draw a graph of Saints attendances vs time it looks remarkably like the FTSE 100. Overall growth for the last 20 years, with blips along the way for exceptional years, and dips for crashes. We're seeing a dip right now, but it's not a massive dip overall, and I honestly don't beleive for all the flack they get, the owners, administrators, etc. are going to sit on their laurels and do nothing to arrest any drop. After all, we spend money on the game, but they all earn from it, so they have far more of a vested interest in improving gates over the long term than we do. I don't think RL should be complacent, but we should bear the last 20 years in mind when comparing crowds with each other rather than just year on year. If you're selective about your time-frame, anyone can show a drop or an increase using statistics. Only by sampling a longer time period can you identify real trends, and the trend for SL crowds is inexorably up since the competition began and in my mind that can only be a good thing.

Saints averages since 200 below for refrerence. Note these are only home games and do not include any Magic weekends as these figures skew the average. I beleive in some cases playoff figures are included depending on the year. If anyone is that bothered they can argue about this but I couldn't be bothered to strip these out.

2000 8808
2001 8801
2002 9925
2003 9818
2004 9502
2005 10622
2006 10720
2007 11264
2008 10642
2009 10985
2010 11575
2011 7867 (played at Widnes)
2012 13080
2013 11160

I agree totally that attendances and the game in general is much stronger now than at the begining of SuperLeague, and I think the move to Summer was definitely the right call. However, you can't rest on your laurels just because things are better than they once were.
We seem to be at a crossroads in the sport, which I think has been acknowledged by the RFL with their plans to re-structure.
The game itself is still excellent, nothing has really changed there (apart from banning the shoulder charge), the players are more athletic than ever - although I do think we've sanitised the half-backs a little, I miss the real skillful ball players (Lee Briers is about the best we've had recently in this regard, and he'd have been ordinary back in the day). But, the lack of spirit shown in many of the league games is an issue, and the more people I speak to who are rugby fans (whether that be at games, mates in the pub, or with my rugby team mates), the more I hear people are getting a little bored with it - yet they all still love the game, they just want it to mean something more often.

Yet attendances during the SL era have declined markedly in the Challenge Cup, in internationals and in the lower divisions.


That'll be the cheap season ticket purchasing culture these days. Fans will be more consistent in turning up because they've already paid. Unfortunately, that culture doesn't extend to paying for fixtures outside the provision of the cheap season ticket. This means that fixtures which are more meaningful... like Challenge Cup games and SL play-offs are often very poorly attended these days. The increased lack of genuine quality competition and intensity between teams doesn't help either.


Saints V Wakefield this season was subject to a [url=http://www.groupon.co.uk/deals/events/St-Helens-RLFC/17925714very cheap groupon ticket offer[/url otherwise the fixture would have been way more than just over 8% down on the same fixture last season and probably closer to 20% down which would be in line with Saints overall percentage drop in attendances this season.


You are entitled to call it a selective time-frame, but comparing the SL attendances from 2009 to 2013 makes sense because it's the closest we get to a like-for-like comparison... ie, licensing, 14 teams, 27 fixtures each, 8 team play-off system, etc. And SL attendances in 2013 thus far are the lowest of the lot!


But not since 2009... not since licensing... not since the 14 team SL... not since the Top 8 play-off system were introduced... not since it has become increasingly apparent that the SL regular season has become utterly meaningless under that structure and policy... and it's definitely not a good thing that attendances at internationals... in the Challenge Cup... in the Championship... in the SL play-offs... are all absolutely dreadful and getting worse.


Don't worry about any inconsistencies in your data set. I doubt any of the usual suspects who are uncomfortable with this thread will be accusing you of fudging the figures.

So nothing to do with summer rugby then?

Or do you think if we go down to 12 teams, top 5 play-off and P&R we'll be fine?

William, I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems that need addressing and I actually stated that in my original post.

I was unaware of the Groupon offer, but plucked the Wakefield game out because I happened to be at the corresponding fixture last year and it's a game that I've often attended for various reasons through the years and remember the often terrible gates.

One could look at several other fixtures against teams that Saints haven't traditionally had good crowds against, where this year, the gates are still higher than the corresponding fixtures for all but last years exceptional season. As a side point; There have always been free tickets given away by clubs. When I was at school over the border in Wigan during their glory years I could have attended every match for free if I wanted to as the teachers at school used to regularly receive offers. The people who went though were people who would have gone to the match anyway, and I think with offers such as this, often maybe a thousand is added to the gate, but the people who get the tickets are often people who would attend no matter what, but like a bargain. Whilst the point about the free tickets at Wigan is empirical experience, I seem to recall reading an academic article regarding distribution of free tickets where most attendees would normally have attended whether the ticket was free or not, but I can't find it at the moment.

If we just look back to 2009, Saints crowds this year are still up on that season though without the spectacular growth of last year, and up on 2008, the last year there was P&R and a 12 team division. I don't think a four year window is a suitable time period to identify a long term trend, but even in that period the general trend for Saints crowds is up. I would expect an improvement in the Stadium atmosphere brought on by construction works, plus a more competetive side would contribute to continuing this trend in the next few years.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that things need to be done to improve the league and gates generally in the long term, but that is being looked at by the powers that be.

Our sporting culture is tinged by football, and explaining the current competition to a potential new fan brought up on the culture of home and away is often greeted with the response "but why?".

The current league structure is not "fair", but at least all clubs play each other "home and away" now, though the magic weekend means that it still isn't a level playing field. To my mind the magic weekend should be a one off event, maybe nines, sevens or some truncated version with an overall winner declared at the end, as otherwise we end up with an odd no. of games which inbalances the league. In the old 12 team structure the season wasn't fair on top clubs either. Saints always ended up playing against Wigan 3 times in 3 high intensity games and having too many of these devalues the fixtures. If you want to add games to the end of the season to flesh out the league you need to do something like the SPL do where the league is split somehow after home and away fixtures are complete, and the top and bottom teams then play each other to finalise league placing, or otherwise just play home and away once. The problem with that is there is no incentive for the final 6 games of the season for the bottom placed teams and this would need to be addressed.

The playoff format is way too complicated. I would go with a league split, followed by a top 5 with an automatic place in the final for the league leaders and the other 4 playing off for the final place, or even a top 4 with two semis and a final (1 play 4, 2 play 3), home advantage to the higher placed team.

I also think the rules of the game need to be altered to make scrums competitive and reduce injuries in the game. Reducing the distance between defence and attack 5m or 7m rule would reduce blowout scores, put more emphasis on creative halfback play and handling and reduce the gap created by fitness between top sides and part timers in the cup competetions, rather than forward brute force and ignorance, and make the game easier to justify to outsiders brought up on union and other sports who will otherwise query the illogicality of the scrum as it currently exists, but that's a whole other can of worms outwith the scope of this topic...

Have we got the latest figures on here? There is so much discussion its hard to find the numbers.

have they?

For those citing attendances at football as an indication that it's only RL that's suffering, outside of a small handfull of Prem clubs, there are discounts galore and very few sellouts over the past few years. Prime example was last weekends Burnley v Blackburn .... local derby, opening fixture of a new season, hyped to death by Sky, tickets priced at £15 (50% discount) yet attendance was just over 12,000 ...... down from 21,000 last season!

I'll bet there isn't a thread similar to this in Tartball Land screaming about the complete collapse of Championship level football.

People simply haven't got money to throw at any league based sports events week after week - they are holding money back for one-off games.

Shush don't tell gutters, he thinks other sports are riding the crest of an Olympic wave whilst SL is being left behind

Leeds utd have been running loads of cheap deals as well.

Yes they have.

Reference: [url=http://www.totalrl.com/shop/criticalhistory.htmlChapter 6[/url.

Summer rugby... [uTranslation[/u: rugby in June/July as opposed to Dec/Jan... the game has paid a huge price in terms of lack of interest, lower attendances and lower profile of RL internationals, Challenge Cup and the Championship tiers. The SL play-offs have suffered even more in terms of poor attendances since the introduction of the current licenced 14 teams, Top 8 play-offs.

My opinion is that the game continues to pay way too high a price in order to accommodate a mere two months worth of meaningless regular season SL fixtures, because that is all the switch to a summer season amounts to... 7 or 8 rounds of meaningless SL. Leeds for instance don't even bother waking up until August, and don't start playing for real until September!


It's a better structure than the failed version of licensed mediocrity that we currently have.