So that's why we are relegating two teams next year, London and Salford down, big announcement in 2015 that avg attendances in SL are significantly higher and it was the right thing to reduce SL and bring back relegation!

Huddersfield at the moment and Wigan when they were c**p are just two examples which lead me to believe we actually don't have much of a clue as to what specifically attracts/drives away fans. You could, at a stretch, use the above two examples to support a 'playoffs and lack of P&R are devaluing comp' argument. ( i.e. Wigan were in genuine jeopardy, and Huddersfield fans don't care all that much about the hubcap ) ... but it's not a slamdunk argument by any means. What I really want to know is who is putting the effort to find these things out, and how are they doing it?

Lol at Eddie Hemmings on sky tonight

"Come on Huddersfield fans, get down and support your team. Its pathetic top of the superleague can only get 5k"

Even sky are trolling their support now!

[uSL Round 22 attendances - comparison to same fixtures last year[/u

Bradford V Hull in 2013 = 7,914
Bradford V Hull in 2012 = 10,616
% decrease = -25.45%

Leeds V Wakefield in 2013 = 18,387
Leeds V Wakefield in 2012 = 12,272
% increase = +49.83%

Salford V Catalan in 2013 = 2,200
Salford V Catalan in 2012 = 5,841
% decrease = -62.34%

Widnes V London in 2013 = 4,870
Widnes V London in 2012 = 5,635
% decrease = -13.58%

Huddersfield V Castleford in 2013 = 5,733
Huddersfield V Castleford in 2012 = 6,928
% decrease = -17.25%

Warrington V Hull KR in 2013 = 9,838
Warrington V Hull KR in 2012 = 11,916
% decrease = -17.44%

St Helens V Wigan in 2013 = 14,204
St Helens V Wigan in 2012 = 17,980
% decrease = -21.00%

Total Attendance in SL Round 22 = 63,146 (Avg: 9,021)
Total Attendance same fixtures last year = 71,188 (Avg: 10,170)
% decrease = -11.30%

**********************
The SL attendances in Round 22 were bailed out by the astonishing attendance of 18,387 at Headingley on Friday night for the Leeds V Wakefield fixture. Nevertheless, SL attendances were still 11.30% down compared to the same fixtures played last season. Had it not been for the attendance at Headingley, the total SL attendances this round would have been down by over 24%, despite the beautiful weather.

**********************
1 out of 7 fixtures in Round 22 have shown an increase in attendance compared to the same SL fixtures last year. 6 out of 7 fixtures in Round 21 have shown a decrease in attendance compared to the same SL fixtures last year.

**********************
Out of 146 fixtures played thus far in 2013 (not including magic weekend fixtures), 37 out of 146 have shown an increase in attendance compared to the corresponding SL fixtures last year. 109 out of 146 fixtures have shown a decrease in attendance compared to the corresponding SL fixtures last year.

[uRound 1 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 64,387 (Avg: 9,19icon_cool.gif
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 63,376 (Avg: 9,054)
% increase = +1.59%

[uRound 2 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 69,809 (Avg: 9,973)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,989 (Avg: 10,284)
% decrease = -3.03%

[uRound 3 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 58,711 (Avg: 8,387)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,246 (Avg: 10,17icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -17.59%

[uRound 4 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 58,948 (Avg: 8,421)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 68,803 (Avg: 9,829)
% decrease = -14.32%

[uRound 5 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 50,207 (Avg: 7,172)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 57,593 (Avg: 8,22icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -12.82%

[uRound 6 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 67,079 (Avg: 9,583)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,439 (Avg: 10,206)
% decrease = -6.10%

[uRound 7 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 57,048 (Avg: 8,150)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 69,941 (Avg: 9,992)
% decrease = -18.43%

[uRound 8 Fixtures (6 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 42,216 (Avg: 7,036)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 60,028 (Avg: 10,005)
% decrease = -29.67%

[uRound 9 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 80,429 (Avg: 11,490)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 81,841 (Avg: 11,692)
% decrease = -1.73%

[uRound 10 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 57,882 (Avg: 8,269)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,601 (Avg: 10,229)
% decrease = -19.16%

[uRound 11 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,117 (Avg: 7,874)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 62,013 (Avg: 8,859)
% decrease = -11.12%

[uRound 12 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 53,477 (Avg: 7,640)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 63,337 (Avg: 9,04icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -15.57%

[uRound 13 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 49,525 (Avg: 7,075)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 59,648 (Avg: 8,521)
% decrease = -16.97%

[uRound 14 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 68,617 (Avg: 9,802)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 80,737 (Avg: 11,534)
% decrease = -15.01%

[uRound 15 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 53,274 (Avg: 7,611)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 57,921 (Avg: 8,274)
% decrease = -8.02%

[uRound 16 MAGIC WEEKEND Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 62,042 (Avg: 8,863)
Total attendance at same event in 2012 = 63,716 (Avg: 9,102)
% decrease = -2.63%

[uRound 17 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 48,752 (Avg: 6,965)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 54,966 (Avg: 7,852)
% decrease = -11.31%

[uRound 18 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,384 (Avg: 7,912)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 56,180 (Avg: 8,026)
% decrease = -1.42%

[uRound 19 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 62,239 (Avg: 8,891)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 60,958 (Avg: 8,70icon_cool.gif
% increase = +2.10%

[uRound 20 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 55,617 (Avg: 7,945)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 62,218 (Avg: 8,88icon_cool.gif
% decrease = -10.61%

[uRound 21 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 64,512 (Avg: 9,216)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,206 (Avg: 10,172)
% decrease = -9.40%

[uRound 22 Fixtures (7 in total)[/u
Total attendance in 2013 = 63,146 (Avg: 9,021)
Total attendance for same fixtures in 2012 = 71,188 (Avg: 10,170)
% decrease = -11.30%

[uRounds 1 to 22 Fixtures (153 in total)[/u
Total attendance for 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures in 2013= 1,298,418 (Avg: 8,486)
Total attendance for same 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures in 2012 = 1,451,945 (Avg: 9,490)
Cumulative attendance loss = 153,527
% decrease = -10.57%

[uClub... Games... 2013... 2012... %gain/loss[/u
Leeds... 11... 167112... 165695... +0.86%
Widnes... 11... 67323... 67874... -0.81%
Wakefield... 9... 71131... 72094... -1.34%
Hull... 10... 118913... 121303... -1.97%
Catalan... 10... 82579... 86238... -4.24%
Hull KR... 11... 80807... 85413... -5.39%
Warrington... 11... 118590... 126145... -5.99%
Castleford... 10... 62549... 67127... -6.82%
Wigan... 9... 129871... 144221... -9.95%
St Helens... 11... 122842... 154142... -20.31%
Huddersfield... 11.. 68688... 86656... -20.73%
London... 11... 24385... 30905... -21.10%
Bradford... 10... 87974... 120964... -27.27%
Salford... 11... 33612... 59452... -43.46%

SUBTOTAL... 146... 1236376... 1388229... -10.94%

Magic Weekend... 7... 62042... 63716... -2.63%

TOTAL... 153... 1298418... 1451945... -10.57%

[uCurrent Average Attendances V Same Fixtures Last Year[/u
[uClub... SL:2013... (SL:2012)[/u
Leeds... 15192... (15063)
Wigan... 14430... (16025)
Hull... 11891... (12130)
St Helens... 11167... (14013)
Warrington... 10781... (1146icon_cool.gif
Bradford... 8797... (12096)
Catalan... 8258... (8624)
Wakefield... 7903... (8010)
Hull KR... 7346... (7765)
Huddersfield... 6244... (787icon_cool.gif
Castleford... 6255... (6713)
Widnes... 6120... (6170)
Salford... 3056... (5405)
London... 2217... (2810)

During the current franchised, 14 club, top 8 play-off system SL era... the total attendances in SL to date remain the lowest we have ever witnessed. Neither the replacement of the poorly-supported Crusaders with the better-supported Widnes, nor the establishment of 2 new stadia, nor the re-establishment of heavily-discounted SL tickets have prevented 2013 SL attendances from being the worst on record so far.

[uSL Rounds 1 to 22 total attendances comparison (2009 to 2013)[/u
=#FF0000SL 2013 - 1,298,418 from 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures.
SL 2012 - 1,451,945 from same 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures.
SL 2011 - 1,363,885 from same 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**
SL 2010 - 1,325,609 from same 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**
SL 2009 - 1,338,089 from same 146 fixtures plus 7 MAGIC fixtures =#FF0000**

[uSL 2013 % decrease in attendances[/u
V SL 2012 = -10.57%
V SL 2011 = -4.80%
V SL 2010 = -2.05%
V SL 2009 = -2.96%

=#FF0000** except replace Widnes with Crusaders

The RFL should only be concerned about attendances after round 27. The missing (estimated at an average 30 quid per fan per game, ticket, beer, food, shop)) 4.6 million in ticketing and residual revenues thus far is only of concern to the 14 Club CEO's and Chairmen..........who it would seem in the case of the big fallers, don't seem to know what to do to address their losses.

Saints Fall from last year was entirely predictable.

2nd year syndrome. Was always going to be a big drop off. If we can hold at around 12k for 2 or 3 years then we will start to pick up again.

Obviously on field helps. Having a season of better away performances, does not encourage the home support.

In the end each club has to make it's own fan's turn up.

[uAssumption: £30 loss of revenue per lost fan compared to last season (by club)[/u
Leeds = £42,510 gain
Widnes = £16,530 loss
Wakefield = £28,890 loss
Hull = £71,700 loss
Catalan = £109,770 loss
Castleford = £137,340 loss
Hull KR = £138,180 loss
London = £195,600 loss
Warrington = £226,650 loss
Wigan = £430,500 loss
Huddersfield = £539,040 loss
Salford = £775,200 loss
St Helens = £939,000 loss
Bradford = £989,700 loss
------------------------------------------------
Revenue Loss Subtotal = £4,555,590
Magic Weekend Loss = £50,220
Revenue Loss Total = £4,605,810
------------------------------------------------

Even Sky are exasperated and mystified by the lack of support. I'll say it again - we might think we understand why people do or don't go to games but we don't really know. What we desperately need is for clubs to commission proper research. This is more complex than just putting out a survey - it requires lots of skill to get right, because survey results can be totally misleading. An important part of research is to 'catch people in the act' of non-attendance and find out there and then *exactly* why they didn't go. You'll find the 'live' reasons are often more mundane ( "kids are tired and kick off too late", "buses aren't on", etc) but more honest than if you just send out a survey and give people time to think up a reply (when you're more likely to get an analysis of the club or sport, but frankly, not the truth as to what's keeping them away). Obviously there's going to be a ton of factors. Playoffs, P&R, etc may well come up as important - if they do, then the clubs are armed with data with which to lobby the RFL for changes ( or not ).

Or you can hire a marketing bloke from Manchester city who likes cartoons

Lol, good point. "Not enough cartoons" has been the biggest whinge I've heard ever since Superleague started. Seriously though - that's exactly the point - marketing looks completely random to me. Maybe it's not, maybe 'cartoons' was identified as The Thing To Do, but I'd be more inclined to think it was just "somefink wot I thought up over the weekend"

Your not taking into account season ticket deductions v increased on the gate takings.

For example my clubs season ticket sales are down 1000 this year but crowd avg is only down 500. This means there are on avg 500 people paying on the gate prices who previously paid discounted season ticket prices. Meaning losses not as bad as may seem.

Giants have probably had more income this season than last fwiw

-20% attendance
+100% cost of season tickets...

Indeed, Wakefield ST's went up by 25% on last season and we have only seen a 10% drop in attendances.

Ditto for Bradford

Out of interest, what is the £30 per fan assumption comprised of?

Bad guesswork! Avg ticket price is probably close to 15-20 pound when you take into account Jnr's, students, concessions, cheapest stands, season ticket discounts and offers during the season.

Yeah but that would be realistic and not the worst case scenario that Mr Eve likes to paint.

[url=http://viewtopic.php?p=17480749&tsmp=1374685106#p17480749HERE[/url

Fair enough. I thought it must include that, but hadn't read back

Actually, it's not far off the mark in regards to lost revenue (I never said ticket revenue and I never said profit)

The average ticket price for a SL game is somewhere between 10-20 based on ST prices through to walk up. Let us say, for the purpose of this match lesson, we give YOU the benefit of the doubt.....we'll say it's 14 notes a pop.

so, 16 notes to find.....hmm...let me see. When was the last time you went to a RL game in SL or the NRL and didn't buy a programme (3 quid?), a beer (3quid), a Pie (2.50?) or visit the shop to add to your burgeoning collection of shirts (50?), scarves (15?) hats (12?) t-shirts (10?) etc etc. Then there are the match day lotteries that some clubs run, official away games where they clip the ticket (10?).....

When I went to the Broncos/Quins, I generally blagged freebies for me and Mrs G, but on the basis we'd paid for the tickets and at a minimum of 10 (7/3 split...she has a problem

) pints each with 1 burger and 2 chips (followed by a scary cycle home

) and judging by the selection of London RL in both our wardrobes and my programme collection, I reckon that we were on 75.00 a game BEFORE we visited the shop. If we only bought 1 replica shirt each a year the we have spent over a grand...of 45 quid each a game....I have every shirt since 2003, a selection of hats, coats away strips, ties, cufflinks, watches, wallets etc....she has a bunch of Quins RL gear as well as some pretty decent stuf ffrom the dark side......

Not everyone hammers 5 pints a game, not does everyone buy replica gear or programmes.....but with 2 chips and a burger, and a few drinks together with the potential of replica shirts and all the rest, I say 30 notes a visit per fan is not far off the mark as an AVERAGE. I have not assumed a growth in commercial and corporate hospitality in my calculations, but if you allow for a 10% drop in that across the board, then the figure grows to nearer 50 notes a head.....

Your sweeping assertion that I guessed the figure is based on nothing than insecurity that Billy Eve might have a point......and that the game might be close to 6 million down in revenue by seasons end. If I am 20% out, the figure is still potentially 5 million a year......if I am 20% out the other way, then nearer 7.5 million a year....I am not "making these figures up" or pulling them out of my ...they are based on various prices across the board....I doubt an exact figure could ever be arrived at.

I have no idea as to Billy's motives in this thread, but personally, I'd like people at the RFL to be given KPI's and to have a full and complete understanding as to the rewards and the consequences of performance....because as it stands, they all seem to have jobs for life, regardless of the clusterf++k they are making of the simplest of tasks.

....I doubt an exact figure could ever be arrived at.

So you made a guess based on anecdotal experience?
There are a wide range of factors involved that you simply do not know therefore can not predict with any accuracy the financial impact of.