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| McGuire was hopeless, as he always has been at international level. Shenton was solid but looked to be lacking in confidence on the few occasions he got a pass. Peacock worked hard but is not mobile enough for a second-row. We won't beat NZ by defending, only by shaking them up by starving them of possession and attacking. It's the last thow of the dice so I'd try Tomkis and Myler at half-back, start with Higham at 9 ( Roby is much better as an impact player ) and start with Burgess in the 2nd row, Graham on the bench for impact, too.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"it was poor, not as bad as some have stated, but it doesnt take much for to get people rolling in glee that Mcguire had a bad game so thats to be expected,'"
Well I don't roll around with glee at any player (especially a good one normally) putting in poor performances in an England shirt. And likewise I don't find the need to try and play down players who did perform better than their experienced counterparts.
McGuire is a good player, however his past 2 outings in an England shirt have been far below the standard the guy should (and is definitely capable of delivering). I don't understand what's going on, but if you watch the flow of play again closely (in the first half particularly) Danny seems to think it's all about him and Kevin.
In the 2nd half Kevin really stepped up when he moved to dummy half, Sam started to see a lot more ball and things started happening. Then Kyle came on and we finally started to look dangerous.
Most underrated player of the day for me - Eorl Crabtree, I thought he was excellent and by far the best prop on the field
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| I'm not going to bag McGuire out like some people have on here(some people have gone a bit OTT), but the facts are that the other halfbacks in the team have all performed considerably better than him in this series and he shouldn't figure next week.
Shaun Briscoe was another who hasn't performed.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"it was poor, not as bad as some have stated, but it doesnt take much for to get people rolling in glee that Mcguire had a bad game so thats to be expected,'"
Aww diddums, maybe if the lot on SS didnt big him up all the time then people wouldnt knock him down so much when he has played absolutley crap like he has in the last 2 games.
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| Quote ="Asgardian13"McGuire was hopeless, as he always has been at international level. Shenton was solid but looked to be lacking in confidence on the few occasions he got a pass. Peacock worked hard but is not mobile enough for a second-row. We won't beat NZ by defending, only by shaking them up by starving them of possession and attacking. It's the last thow of the dice so I'd try Tomkis and Myler at half-back, start with Higham at 9 ( Roby is much better as an impact player ) and start with Burgess in the 2nd row, Graham on the bench for impact, too.'"
Oh really, I assume you haven't actually watched any of the previous Internationals which he featured in, i'm referring to the World Cup Semi Final against New Zealand where he was Englands best player. Many Aussie pundits were also impressed by him, including Andrew Johns.
He also didn't do to badly in the mid season test against France before having to leave the field injured.
But, as is the case many people literally cream their pants when he doesn't perform and seem to forget previous performances as they don't fit their agenda.
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| Quote ="Steve Ella's Beard"Well I don't roll around with glee at any player (especially a good one normally) putting in poor performances in an England shirt. And likewise I don't find the need to try and play down players who did perform better than their experienced counterparts.
McGuire is a good player, however his past 2 outings in an England shirt have been far below the standard the guy should (and is definitely capable of delivering). I don't understand what's going on, but if you watch the flow of play again closely (in the first half particularly) Danny seems to think it's all about him and Kevin.
In the 2nd half Kevin really stepped up when he moved to dummy half, Sam started to see a lot more ball and things started happening. Then Kyle came on and we finally started to look dangerous.
Most underrated player of the day for me - Eorl Crabtree, I thought he was excellent and by far the best prop on the field'"
To be honest I think it was. Tomkins hardly imposed himself on the game did he . I'm not going to slate him as it was his first International, against the Aussies aswell. A stand off generally is expected to run the ball a bit more than the scrum half, but he was having to do both 6 & 7.
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| Quote ="Steve Ella's Beard"Well I don't roll around with glee at any player (especially a good one normally) putting in poor performances in an England shirt. And likewise I don't find the need to try and play down players who did perform better than their experienced counterparts.
McGuire is a good player, however his past 2 outings in an England shirt have been far below the standard the guy should (and is definitely capable of delivering). I don't understand what's going on, but if you watch the flow of play again closely (in the first half particularly) Danny seems to think it's all about him and Kevin.
In the 2nd half Kevin really stepped up when he moved to dummy half, Sam started to see a lot more ball and things started happening. Then Kyle came on and we finally started to look dangerous.
Most underrated player of the day for me - Eorl Crabtree, I thought he was excellent and by far the best prop on the field'"
I wouldnt disagree with a lot of what you have put here,
but i would look again at the reasons why, first Half Tomkins did nothing, he was poor and his pass selection at times was woeful, Sinfield was pretty much set at loose and we had very little direction, Mcguire was then doing everything he could to bring them both back into the game (poorly), which isnt the job he is there to do,
in the 2nd half Sinfield took the control that was missing (and generally the team improved as a whole) and Mcguire took a back seat, Tomkins then basically spent 40 minutes trying off the cuff stuff with Sinfield doing everything else the halfbacks should do, even when eastmond came back on Sinfield was basically playing hooker or as the one halfback,
Neither Eastmond nor Tomkins seemed to fit into any type of structure, and thats understandable, they are very young and inexperienced,
Mcguire is a very good player, and has had very good games at international level, 2 poor games (and i dont think he was [ithat[/i bad in either of them) doesnt change that
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| Quote ="OoOGazOoO"Aww diddums, maybe if the lot on SS didnt big him up all the time then people wouldnt knock him down so much when he has played absolutley crap like he has in the last 2 games.'"
i dont care, and im sure neither does Danny Mcguire
when he counts his money and super league winners rings and looks at his international caps and tours and look back on his career, im sure he really doesnt mind that people who werent good enough and dont know enough got into petty childish pointscoring on an internet messageboard
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"i dont care, and im sure neither does Danny Mcguire
when he counts his money and super league winners rings and looks at his international caps and tours and look back on his career, im sure he really doesnt mind that people who werent good enough and dont know enough got into petty childish pointscoring on an internet messageboard'"
So you can have your opinion but if anyone says anything against it, it's time to throw the toys out of the pram.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I wouldnt disagree with a lot of what you have put here,
but i would look again at the reasons why, first Half Tomkins did nothing, he was poor and his pass selection at times was woeful, Sinfield was pretty much set at loose and we had very little direction, Mcguire was then doing everything he could to bring them both back into the game (poorly), which isnt the job he is there to do,
in the 2nd half Sinfield took the control that was missing (and generally the team improved as a whole) and Mcguire took a back seat, Tomkins then basically spent 40 minutes trying off the cuff stuff with Sinfield doing everything else the halfbacks should do, even when eastmond came back on Sinfield was basically playing hooker or as the one halfback,
Neither Eastmond nor Tomkins seemed to fit into any type of structure, and thats understandable, they are very young and inexperienced,
Mcguire is a very good player, and has had very good games at international level, 2 poor games (and i dont think he was [ithat[/i bad in either of them) doesnt change that'"
Out of curiosity smokey do you think that tompkins will be a better player at his best than mguire is at his best?
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| Quote ="OoOGazOoO"So you can have your opinion but if anyone says anything against it, it's time to throw the toys out of the pram.
'"
not at all, have your opinion all you want, express it, its what this board is for
but when your opinion is based purely on petty pointscoring (as you have admitted) dont expect not to be called for being childish and petty
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| Quote ="pyeman"Out of curiosity smokey do you think that tompkins will be a better player at his best than mguire is at his best?'"
he certainly has the potential to be
Mcguire suffers from being sooooooo good at scoring tries for the first couple of years, he did the big spectacular things fantastically and as is normal, some cant get enough of shooting him down,
He has matured, and has matured into a very good, more complete stand off, he has imposed him self on a leeds team he was previously peripheral in
Mcguire still has some improvement to go, but he has been, for a long time, a fantastic player
Tomkins could very well go on to have a very good career, a very successful career and still not be as good as Mcguire, within a year, he will have the same problem as Mcguire, People will build him up and up and up just to shoot him down until people get into entrenched positions and ignore everything thats actually happening and just look for proof of their prejudice.
Lets see where he is in two or three years, I think he has massive potential, but i think he has a massive way to go to reach it
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"he certainly has the potential to be
Mcguire suffers from being sooooooo good at scoring tries for the first couple of years, he did the big spectacular things fantastically and as is normal, some cant get enough of shooting him down,
He has matured, and has matured into a very good, more complete stand off, he has imposed him self on a leeds team he was previously peripheral in
Mcguire still has some improvement to go, but he has been, for a long time, a fantastic player
Tomkins could very well go on to have a very good career, a very successful career and still not be as good as Mcguire, within a year, he will have the same problem as Mcguire, People will build him up and up and up just to shoot him down until people get into entrenched positions and ignore everything thats actually happening and just look for proof of their prejudice.
Lets see where he is in two or three years, I think he has massive potential, but i think he has a massive way to go to reach it'"
Fair enough, i not sure i agree with all of that, but at least its well reasoned. I do think yourself and a few others need to realise that if someone does criticise a player from your team it can be because he has done something wrong and not becuase of who he plays for. we all know that mguire can be a very good player at times but that doesnt mean he is all the time. Personally i think that if he was at somewhere like salford he wouldnt be raved about all that much, but i'm sure you would disagree with that, as you see more of him than me and can see the little things that he does at leeds that others dont notice, however we are now looking at his performances at international level where what you do at club level doesnt matter and he has been found wanting so far. I dont thinks thats all his fault though if we had selected a proper scrum half with a good kicking game such as long or brough then whoever played at 6 would have been able to do more in attack and have less defending to do.
Personally i think that tompkins will overtake mguire as a player as he has that instinctive quality that you can coach against. And trust me have no love for wigan or leeds so bias doesnt come into it, i'm just calling it as i see it.
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| Quote ="pyeman"Fair enough, i not sure i agree with all of that, but at least its well reasoned. I do think yourself and a few others need to realise that if someone does criticise a player from your team it can be because he has done something wrong and not becuase of who he plays for. we all know that mguire can be a very good player at times but that doesnt mean he is all the time. Personally i think that if he was at somewhere like salford he wouldnt be raved about all that much, but i'm sure you would disagree with that, as you see more of him than me and can see the little things that he does at leeds that others dont notice, however we are now looking at his performances at international level where what you do at club level doesnt matter and he has been found wanting so far. I dont thinks thats all his fault though if we had selected a proper scrum half with a good kicking game such as long or brough then whoever played at 6 would have been able to do more in attack and have less defending to do.
Personally i think that tompkins will overtake mguire as a player as he has that instinctive quality that you can coach against. And trust me have no love for wigan or leeds so bias doesnt come into it, i'm just calling it as i see it.'"
im not criticising people for criticising Mcguire, i think he was poor,
what im criticising is the glee and exaggeration that is involved because its Danny Mcguire.
What you have put here is right, the fact we have gone into a major championship with no scrum half is ridiculous,
its comments like Tomkins is already better than Mcguire, or that performance should finish him at this level blah blah blah, which are clearly an idiotic over-reaction to one game that im criticising
and as I said, i dont disagree, Tomkins has the potential to be a better player than Mcguire, but he is miles away from fulfilling it as of right now
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"im not criticising people for criticising Mcguire, i think he was poor,
what im criticising is the glee and exaggeration that is involved because its Danny Mcguire.
What you have put here is right, the fact we have gone into a major championship with no scrum half is ridiculous,
its comments like Tomkins is already better than Mcguire, or that performance should finish him at this level blah blah blah, which are clearly an idiotic over-reaction to one game that im criticising
and as I said, i dont disagree, Tomkins has the potential to be a better player than Mcguire, but he is miles away from fulfilling it as of right now'"
Good post.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"he certainly has the potential to be
Mcguire suffers from being sooooooo good at scoring tries for the first couple of years, he did the big spectacular things fantastically and as is normal, some cant get enough of shooting him down,
He has matured, and has matured into a very good, more complete stand off, he has imposed him self on a leeds team he was previously peripheral in
Mcguire still has some improvement to go, but he has been, for a long time, a fantastic player
Tomkins could very well go on to have a very good career, a very successful career and still not be as good as Mcguire, within a year, he will have the same problem as Mcguire, People will build him up and up and up just to shoot him down until people get into entrenched positions and ignore everything thats actually happening and just look for proof of their prejudice.
Lets see where he is in two or three years, I think he has massive potential, but i think he has a massive way to go to reach it'"
McGuires average at best and has'nt developed into half the player he promised to be. He'd hold a spot down at any SL Club but at anywhere other than Leeds, Sts or Wigan he would be pretty obscure.
This time next year Steffan Ratchford will be a better stand off than McGuire can now hope to be.
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| Quote ="The Clan"McGuires average at best and has'nt developed into half the player he promised to be. He'd hold a spot down at any SL Club but at anywhere other than Leeds, Sts or Wigan he would be pretty obscure.
This time next year Steffan Ratchford will be a better stand off than McGuire can now hope to be.'"
This is the kind of rubbish Smokey was talking about.
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| Quote ="christopher"This is the kind of rubbish Smokey was talking about.'"
Well you and Smokey may think it's rubbish and thats an opinion you're entitled to.
My opinion differs.
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| As a Quins supporter I couldnt give a monkeys where our players come from. I just want the best out there and imo MCGuire is the best support player in the country. However, his passing at times is woefull as it was in this game. Eastmond seemed able to throw a pass with great accuracy and in true Saints traditon can catch it as well. McGuire is not rubbish and to call him so is ridiculous. He is a beeter support player than either Eastmond or Tomkins but his ball skills are not as good. He is the Ian Wright of RL if you like. Because of his experience the coach may perservere with him against the Kiwis but in the long run he knows these two are breathing down his neck. If he plays, I hope he remembers its a team game and doesnt stop passing to the other two.
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| Quote ="The Clan"Well you and Smokey may think it's rubbish and thats an opinion you're entitled to.
My opinion differs.'"
History tells us you are wrong
and anybody who watches him regularly will tell us you are wrong,
and anybody who knows RL will tell us you are wrong
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| Quote ="LEEDSLEADS."To be honest I think it was. Tomkins hardly imposed himself on the game did he .'"
Tomkins is 20 and in his first SL season, McGuire is 26/27 and been a member of numerous championship winning squads.
McGuire should be able to impose himself on a game more than Tomkins, he didn't.
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| Quote ="Billinge_Lump"Tomkins is 20 and in his first SL season, McGuire is 26/27 and been a member of numerous championship winning squads.
McGuire should be able to impose himself on a game more than Tomkins, he didn't.'"
Leave it, he is trying to defend the indefendable.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"History tells us you are wrong
and anybody who watches him regularly will tell us you are wrong,
and anybody who knows RL will tell us you are wrong'"
History tells us that John Holmes was a great stand off as was David Topliss, Tony Myler, John Woods etc. and McGuire isn't fit to lace their boots. He has nowhere near the level of skill nor their outstanding attributes.
Please don't quote medals and rings at me as they are team accolades and really mean nothing when judging an individual. Garry Schoffield was an infinitely better player than McGuire and he hasn’t got a medal to his name.
Those who watch him regularly! Do you mean Rhino's fans? Not exactly the most impartial judges. I've seen enough of McGuire over the last few years to make an informed judgement.
Believe me I know rugby league!
I am well qualified to form an opinion and it's as valid and perhaps better informed than most.
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| I've just watched the replay and McGuire was even worse then on live viewing.
I wanted him in the side before the comp started but he can't be defended after yesterday. He was woeful and will rightfully lose his place next week(if Smith has half a brain).
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| I thought it was a joke that Briscoe got made a scapegoat for Smith and McGuire. He never had a chance on that wing with them two clowns defending inside him.
Smith played better when moved to the wing, but what sort of message does it send to the team?
McGuire was just woeful. I can't think of a single thing that he did that was even average. Defence - shocking. Passing - shocking. Kicking - shocking.
I agree with people about Roby at hooker as well. But who else is there?
Eastmond to centre. Myler to 7. Tomkins to 6. McGuire to bench. Smith on the wing? Well, I wouldn't have even picked him for the series, but looks like he's gonna get that spot next week.
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