I always thought they count them all, sure football do but could be mistaken.

Did anyone read the programme notes yesterday? Apparently we have far fewer home league games in July and August because of the Challenge Cup so it's a lottery as to whether we'll have much income from gates when we have the best chance of a good crowd.

Do we move the Challenge Cup back to it's original slot?

As for marketing I don't go into Bradford much at all either but I would say that there is a large proportion of fans that don't either. Many people live in the suburbs and work elsewhere nowadays. As a result the club has to be imaginative with its marketing. I must confess I rarely look at the club's website or twitter feed. I do look at the T&A online though that's it. The bottom line is that many people couldn't afford the big price hike for season tickets and so are picking their games.

There's little the club can do about the general economic situation. Just hope they have some luck in getting all the TV money for 2014.

One thing would seem certain though, if our Sky money is witheld once again next season and the crowds don't improve the club will have to budget accordingly. Unfortunately those cuts might well be to the 1st team squad.

Those who did not go missed a very entertaining game yesterday. Although obviously a lot of people will have been away on holiday of course.

What really struck me yesterday, though, was the relative dearth of young people at the game. Certainly in the so-called "Family Stand".

Maybe the club seemingly concentrating its marketing efforts through twitterings and facebook and other virtual media is an attempt to focus on the younger generation; maybe its a reflection of cost constraints or maybe for other reasons. But I can't help but observe that almost every youngster (and I include teenagers and into early twenties in that) I see seems to be forever glued to and staring at some mobile device, seemingly entranced and oblivious to almost everything else going on around them.

We never had all this virtual universe stuff back in the original Bullmania days. Back then, I suggest youngsters spent a lot more time interacting with the real world, and with real people - including watching the Bulls - than they seem to now. I very much suspect this step change in behaviour is a contributory factor to disappointing attendances, although maybe being a miserable grumpy old gìt means I just don't "get it"...

But disappointing crowds, at a time when you might expect them to improve, is nothing new. Remember Caisley's tirade against the people of Bradford in 2004, in his annual report? Albeit at crowds twice the size of now. I think it is also a reflection in part of the economy, after years of illusory boom built on debt that in any case largely bypassed the city. And of the wider malaise of the pall of apathy that anyway seems to bedevil this city nowdays.

The bloody freezing shìt-awful weather is hardly helping, though. I had God knows how many layers on yesterday, but was still frozen by the end.

Well I went with some family to the Leeds game on Thursday and the comment that stood out was how "it's so much better live than on TV". This season as a group we've gone from 5 season ticket holders to 1 (me). That's been down to a combination of expense and changing circumstances. 4 of us went yesterday but the contrast in the quality of the game and atmosphere was pretty stark compared with Thursday.

Once people get out of the habit of going it's harder to get them back, games the quality of the Leeds match help but games like yesterday less so.

I don't have any answers and aren't a marketing guru but it seems to me that you can't simply rely on the same people coming year in year out. There needs to be a big effort made to bring in new fans every year. The bring a friend for a fiver is a decent idea, nothing new, but ok. The problem was that I was unaware of the offer and I doubt I was alone in that. That can cause a decent idea to fall flat.

It seems to me that if the club wants to attract a younger audience they need to do it via schools, college, university and social media.

They're trying at the uni'. There's been a couple of half price with a NUS card deals this year, and they're advertising it through the Student's Union's Facebook which has a pretty wide reach across the student body.

Could they offer them a free traffic cone with every ticket or something?

I had a season ticket for the last two years because it was cheap and now I don't have one. I've only been to two games this year, I just don't enjoy going as much as I used to do and can find more cost effective ways to spend my leisure time.

My friends who would come to occasional games with me in their teenage years would never go to matches now because of the cost, and that for the same price they could sit in the pub all Sunday afternoon having a few pints and watching the football on the television... plus now more and more people around my age group are starting families, getting mortgages etc so time / money aren't as freely available... so there is a need to attract a new generation.

I think something like the membership scheme might help, well you pay an upfront membership fee and then get cheap admission to games / offers etc - it'd take away the financial commitment of buying a season ticket (don't Bradford City do something like this?). Another one might be where you pay quite a bit of money for a season ticket but then get money back for attending - I'm sure Walsall FC are doing this for junior tickets.

I've no idea where RL / the Bulls can position themselves nowadays. Attracting a younger generation of fans not only has to compete with other leisure interests but the fact that Bradford has one of the country's highest youth unemployment rates. Generally disposable income left for leisure activities is shrinking, so people would be more unlikely to pay £20 to watch a game of RL... and finally the general perception of RL needs to improve against other sports. Any marketing experts in the house?

Good point about the lack of disposable income for younger supporters. The club need to be imaginative here to bring in a new generation of fans. Time for Kate Hardcastle to show what all the publicity is about.

The half-price with a NUS card is a good start.

What about some tickets for small groups of games? They could be targetted at schoolkids with the caveat that they bring an adult. 1st game would be free. Then subsequent games the price goes up by £5 a game. We need to get people hooked but they need tempting through the gates. It's harder than ever to get the crowds in so it may mean a short term loss.

I think giving free season tickets to kids at junior clubs would be a good idea. Give them up to about 10 years old. If they've got a free season ticket, they will want to use it and get to plenty of games, unfortunately they probably weren't be able to go without their patents taking them and paying. This is where they club gets it's money, while keeping the juniors involved.

Maybe though we are where we are, and maybe you just can't get a significant gate increase, choose wht you do, without either spending more than the revenue increase on marketing, or else going back to silly prices.

Maybe there just aren't the thousands of extra people out there who are able to be persuaded to come week in week out. I think that's about it, in a nutshell.

I think if the club is working for the medium to long term, i.e. throwing resources at finding any way you can to encourage kids to come back, thus with parents, and aim at recreating the Bulls family we once had, then that is probably the way to go, but times are hard, and as has been said already, many young kids are much more interested in communicating with their little virtual world and have little inclination to bother with the real world.

This year, ANY kid under 11 can have a FREE season ticket, and I'm not quite sure, if that doesn't attract plenty of young 'uns, what else they can do. Pay kids to come? I expect the answer is that free or not, you need to persuade the corresponding adults to take them and that isn't happening like it once did.

There are even those committed enough to bother browsing RAB who yet say that they pick and choose, or don't go at all. If people with that level of club connection can't be persauded then what else can they do?

To those who are of that reluctance - what WOULD encourage you to start paying regularly again? (Serious question). I expect that if the Bulls became seriously good again, the "glory hunters" (and I have NOTHING against them at all - my firm view has always been that nobody has any obligation whatsoever to spend their own time and money anywhere except their choice) will be back in reasonable numbers - but that is the arch chicken and egg situation since it is hard-to-impossible to get to those heights without spending the money on the players and so again you would question whether economically that would be working. Yes, 10-12K crowds, but any more money coming in NET??

As for chairmen, such as Caisley, berating the citizens for not supporting their club, that's probably the most counter-productive and irritating thing any chairman could ever do. For one, it won't get one single person extra through the gate - so what is the fookin point? For another, why would even an understandably peeved chairman think that if Fred Bloggs isn't coming despite a great team, good atmosphere, succesful results etc., yet he might come if he gets a bollocking in the press? The chairman may [ifeel[/i that way, but if he [isays[/i it, then he is truly a moron.

Finally, those who are going can, in my view, be easily the best marketing we have at the moment. Persudae friends and family to go. If YOU can't sell it, what chance has expensive ads in the media? I would suggest none. You shouldn't be surprised that people are now in a negative mindset about spending what is a lot of money in choosing to re-form an attachment/association with the Bulls. We that go, and can vouch for what a great time we now all hav,e and how well the team is doing are the converted. But those who stopped going will only come round very gradually, and only if the progress continues. I don't care how much you spent on marketing, I can't see it would make any real net cash difference.

Although I still go:
i) I am fed up with seeing games ruined by poor refs, both games we have woon and lost (and please don't say we wouldn't have a game without them)
ii)Last year left a very bad taste in the mouth - all the main players have drifted away and we still don't know what went on.

TBH, looking round at the crowds this year, they don't look physically any bigger than they have for the last 2 years. IMO if you actually counted the people through the gates, you'd have similar numbers to what we're getting now.

Yes, I know the attendances for the last two years have been given as over 10k, but that's taking into account all those cheap season tickets. Trouble is, I don't think all those 10k showed up every week. Which is probably a large part of the reason we ended up in the mess we did as it's likely the board were hoping to make up the short-fall from the ticket sales from concession sales (food, drink, etc) and as people were picking and choosing which games to attend that plan sort of fell on it's backside.

What about a season ticket scheme that rewards loyalty?
Something like:
Attend all 13 league games - 20% off next years season ticket (could be graded - 12 games 10%, 11 games 5%).
Challenge Cup games 2% off for each game attended.
Play off games 5% off for each game.
Friendlies 2%
And so on. I think it would encourage people to attend more games and spend money while they are there.

Sorry, but IMO in practice a very poor idea mate, once you think it through.

Some of us have to work sometimes on matchdays. Or even, heaven forbid, manage to take a holiday. Or maybe fall ill. Or close family members do. Or have domestic emergencies. Or whatever else. Or have to accommodate partner's or otehr family commitments.

That does not make such people any less loyal fans.

Can see where you are coming from, but IMO would be highly counter-productive as would probably pìss off as many loyal fans as it might incentivise. It certainly would me.

Certainly a difficult question with no easy answers, so interesting to see the ideas

As Adey says even with a season ticket there will be reasons you cannot get to all the home games, and I have to be honest and say the games I make a real effort to see are the Leeds Derby, and Saints, Wigan and Wolves because by and large they play good football and you get a good feeling if you get some points from them - sorry if I have offended someone there. We have 3 of these games still to come this season which will hopefully push up the average gate, and the Saints game was messed about which probably cost a few thousand bodies on the gate.

However if we can say that at 7500 attendances are at base level - fingers crossed - and the majority of the club's main costs are fixed - then any additional marginal income you can generate has to help. My thoughts - and some of these might already be in place would be a) to target the younger supporters, and b) put some extra incentives in place to bring back some of the fans who have either lost some interest or are finding their incomes squeezed. So:
1) free season tickets for youth players registered at clubs in the area.
2) £2 tickets for school age children
3) A £2 UB40 ticket
4) If you buy a £20 day ticket you get a voucher for a pint/burger.
5) Ticket deals for away fans made available through their clubs.
6) More deals like the £18 lunch in the coral for the Salford game, with say a family of 4 meal and game ticket
7) A five games for £50 mini season ticket


Tickets through schools - maybe with a family bundle free - as you would hope at least some might enjoy the experience and come back as paying customers.
9) Ban television - OK I know that one is a bit radicalicon_smile.gif

I think this sort of thing has some legs.

My circumstances now mean I struggle to commit to every home game (much as I'd like to).

I'd definitely look at a 5/6/7/8/9/10 game ticket and pick the ones I came to.

Flexibility is the key for many fans now - especially given cost and distance many travel.

The other one is tying this into away games; though I appreciate this requires buy in from all other clubs.

For example; The ideal for me would be a 20 game season ticket that allows me to attend home / away / cup / play off (excluding finals) games of my choice.

Wasn't there some kind of deal for reduced season tickets? Or was that under the [iAncien Régime[/i? Can't see it on the site at the moment.

I think under that system it was something where they came in groups, i.e the games were divided up by someone at the club and you then bought a ticket for that predetermined group of fixtures.

There's several ways you can do it:

A) Divide games amongst the top drawer fixtures (Wigan, Leeds, Warrington, etc)
B) A little from column A and a little from column B. Half the top drawer/ half bottom drawer games on each ticket.
C) Let the punter nominate the games, and then they're tied to those games
D) A ticket with seven games on it. The punter turns up, the amount of games on the ticket gets decremented by one.

Curious to see how much you could do realistically with the current infrastructure though.

I assume that the software in place already supports a lot of this, because I imagine the cards people got were similar to the season tickets. Punter turns up, bar code reader checks back with base if the person is allowed in or not, and then they get a yes or no answer back.

I imagine everyone wants option D because of the flexibility, or would accept option C.

The trouble with that is people are numpties. They will forget which games they have access to, how many games they have left, and so on. They will forget often and they will be there in numbers trying to get in at the last minute when you want the queue to be flowing.

If it's a predetermined list of games made by someone else then you can mark the card as Ticket Type A, or Ticket Type B, or whatever it actually is. You can have something on the website that lists which games Ticket Type A and Ticket Type B holders get access to, and you can also mention it in everything that markets the game. Also important is that the person on the turnstile has a simple thing to say. "Sorry sir / madam, you have the wrong type of ticket for this game. This is an A game and you have a B ticket. Full details are available on the website." Or you might even have a leaflet handy you can give them. That's it, problem dealt with. Next.

If the games the tickets cover aren't predetermined, and there's a whole bunch of flexibility tied into it, then the reason the bar code scanner and the thing it's connected to said no aren't necessarily clear. Is there a screen in there giving feed back to the person on the turnstile? If there isn't that's a big investment, and probably some development time to make it feasible. Do you even want the turnstile operator explaining what games the customer can get into or not? What if there's a huge queue behind them, it's two minutes to kick off and the punter is being a c0ck?

Or do you send them round to the ticket office to see what the problem is there?

Technology wise I bet it's entirely possible, with maybe a little development and investment. Procedurally I bet it's a nightmare.

I'm about to change the email service from under the feet of 40,000+ people. I did it before a little under two years ago. Thinking about the consequences even the smallest of actions can have on support staff is something I get to deal with a lot. Email services don't kick off in five minutes time though, and games do.

Not saying it's impossible, just that it's not as easy as you might think.

We (family of four) have had season tickets for the last 8 years, but decided against it this time. Some of that is cost - we live 70 miles away so fuel costs and increased season ticket prices have made it too pricey at a time when we have to cut back.

But we might have overcome that except for the fact that for the last 4-5 years during the formative period of my kids interest in sport there's been very little success on the field and they've experienced too many occasions where they've come away upset and dispirited, as well as cold and wet. Last year topped all that off, the idea that 'their team' might be gone, meant it was easier to move on rather than keep putting up with the pain, and neither of them wanted to go again regularly - too many other more satisfying things to be involved in, including their own involvement in sport which now takes a lot of our weekends, is cheaper and personally, for them, far more enjoyable.

They also follow football, the NFL, NBA, etc, which all seem to have more appeal to them because of the global nature of those games, their profile and the fact that their peer group know the players and can identify with the game etc. RL isn't even played at school level where we live and we're in Lancs, so hardly out of the heartlands, yet for a lot of their peer group, as far as profile, the game might as well not exist.

They're still Bulls fans, probably always will be, we had a full house watching the Leeds match on TV and came over to Odsal for the Salford game, but at a cost of £80 for a family of four in the family stand plus £25 in petrol and a meal out at OK's, we might make one other match this year.

I think it's great that kids under 11 can get in free, but unless people know about that and unless you have the marketing of characters/players/success that first attracted us, it will always be difficult to get new people in, particularly families - the costs and competition for spare cash are just too great. I think 6500 is probably a base of support to build from, but the days of 14-15k are long gone and likely never to return. In part, some of the problem I'm sure comes from the nature of the relationship between the City and club, which has never seemed to meet its potential. With the new ownership, time and investment that might change, but I have worked in Bradford for a long time now, and yet have never got the sense of everyday connection/interest in the club I get when I'm working in Wigan for example, that sense that the club is woven in to the very fabric of the town's identity. We've all seen what a cup run can do and the chicken and egg of success and increased support might be helped if we did the impossible in the CC or something similar in the playoffs, but I suspect for the medium term 7-8k will be about what we can expect with larger numbers for the derby, Wigan etc.

With regards to kids and social media and the future of the sport etc that Adey raised I do worry about the future of RL. In a world of instant access to sports with a global profile, it's likely that those sports will continue to prosper and regional games will be diminished as a result - the fact that the NFL can sell out Wembley for two games, whilst the CC final will struggle to get a full house is alarming, great for American football, but again only so much money to go around.

I also don't think it helps that Sky has shown so little interest in Aussie RL, yet they have have 'super rugby' in abundance - if you were a casual spectator interested in 'rugby' as a game, you'd struggle to pick out RL as a real alternative to RU. You can have all the magazine programmes, special interest stuff there is, but without actually showing more games from elsewhere around the world, any casual sports fan would be forgiven for thinking it was a minority interest variant of the 'real game'. Of course it also doesn't help when some of the matches that Sky do cover are so one-sided - Wigan v Widnes for example, and look at some of the matches they could have ended up with last weekend - god forbid they ever cover a match the likes of Wigan -v Hull KR. Similarly I've hardly met anyone outside of the RL community who knows the World Cup is taking place, even casual sky viewers I know, who do have an interest, have not been aware of it.

I hope this changes, and I hope the World Cup is a success, but at present the future of RL doesn't look so bright and I think Bradford's attendances reflect some of that and some of the problems that have been systemic to the club over the last few years. With time and energy and a lot of work that might turn around, but the context of the sport in which the club is operating is also problematic and needs to be understood.

Seems to me from reading the posts above that the club has done well to retain 6.5k season ticket holders at full prices.

Given the decline of the club since 2006/7, some awful performances under McNamara, the bad publicity of the financial mess along with the historical problems of the ground and awful weather we've had for the past few years I'd say we're doing alright. It's important to put it into context.

We now seem to have a young side that is on the upward curve with an increasingly convincing head coach in charge. Off the field it is to be hoped we can get a period of stability and gradual improvement in how the club runs. If we get that then I can see attendances gradually rise again albeit slowly unless we get a trip to Wembley or something to speed things up.

Some decent weather would certainly help, as would some development of the ground but those things are in the lap of the gods.

Rome wasn't built in a day. I hope those running the club are aware of that and aren't expecting anything other than a long difficult struggle. However if we keep this side together and are careful with who we bring in things will improve. The dark days of the McNamara era are behind us.

ALL ?

Don't think we need a trip to Wembley tbh, we just need ac atalyst and if we make the playoffs getting to the QF or the semi of the cc will show we are back amd mean business and that this club is no relation to the dross pelt the past

We couldn't have use some Cup wins and home Cup draws. Statistically we are due around 100 consecutive home ties in the rounds.

Trouble is if the draws are against naff opposition even then we may only get 3K or 4K through the gate - but that's a load better than no games at all.

But you know we will get most away fixtures, sods law.

Also looking at the fixtures Bulls are only on tv twice more, least we should have a good attendance for the home games.

And even though the leeds game is on tv it should still be a very high turnout circa 13k and we have wigan and wire to come, looked at the others not many fans will follow them.

Could also do with as many bulls fans travelling to the away games and buying tickets through the buls to pump in more money.

Wigans runin seems abit suspect final 5 games 4 at home, handy for them least we have 3/5 at home.

probably by prior arrangement to allow them a run of away games first to allow JJB to be reseeded. seem to remember they did this last year or year before as well at end of premier league season for same reason