...after the Grand Final I have a quick look forward towards the internationals and then get ready for a welcome break from the RL. However, I do not feel this way today because already I can't wait for next year to start.

The way in which we competed and showed flashes of improvement over the year especially with the performance of our kids and LMS has me excited for next year. Excited because I want to see how these guys progress. They're an enthusiastic and, more importantly, confident group of young professionals. I don't recall there being this many in first grade or knocking of the door of first grade. Next year they should be more effective and will have another preseason under Simmons.

We'll be moving into our new season and although it would have been amazing to be champions I'm still buzzing about [iThe S[/i. In fact, I don't know how long it's been since I've been this excited about going into the off season. What will the new stadium be like? How are our kids going to progress? Will Royce be able to instill that "looking to win rather than not lose" ethic he wants? What will it all look like?

For the first time in a long time I'm already tuned in and cannot wait for Super League XVII to start.

Not me. At this point I'd be delighted with us not collapsing next season and if you offered me someone other than Wire or Wigan winning the trophies, but not us either, I'd take it.

We haven't got enough quality to win anything. Throw in a Jamie Lyon and possibly, but we've got no real star players, just grafters and kids.

We do lack that quality Jamie Lyon type player.

We'll be knocking on the door for years with out youth development system, that added with good overseas signings mean Saints will be fighting for major honours. Look at the youth leagues already for this short amateur season.

U15 Premier Division leaders - Blackbrook (9 Saints scholarship players)

U14 Premier Division Leaders - Blackbrook, with Clock Face 2nd.

U13 Premier Division leaders - Thatto Heath Crusaders

Our junior sides are leading the way and that alone excites me. COYS!

We have some outstanding players coming through, which should ensure we continue to challenge for honours.

Just look how good Makinson is as a teenager, I havent seen a British threequarter with the all round footballing ability at that age since Newlove and Connolly broke on the scene.

Gaskell, Lomax and Wheeler can only get better.

There are also other kids that have just dipped their toes in the water. Players like Scott Hale Nathan Ashe & Carl Forster.

Then there are those who may make their debuts next year such as Josh Jones or Joe Greenwood

No team in the league has a Jamie Lyon player. Cas have the Man of Steel but is Rangi Chase really a Jamie Lyon type player?

There is no obvious dominant power in SL these days. Leeds were SL champions and Warrington were league winners but the same issue applies to both - the best players are ageing and the teams are going into a transition time even if they avoid Bradford style decline, they will be in the situation Saints have been in in the last few years. Wigan are Challenge Cup winners and have been strong over the past couple of seasons but I think Wigan's power is built on slightly shaky foundations, they have lost a very good coach and replaced him with an unknown coaching set up of Wane, Harris and Thomas, like Warrington and Leeds some of their best players (Richards and Carmont) are getting on a bit. Yes they will point to having a few good youngsters but so do Saints and Leeds and to a lesser extent Warrington as well. Wigan in the past couple of years have been a good side well coached rather than a world class team IMO, and are heavily dependent on one top class player (O'Loughlin) and one game breaker (Sam Tomkins).

Huddersfield a year or so ago looked like knocking on the door under Nathan Brown but the second half of this season they have fallen behind the four teams mentioned above. Catalans to me seem like London Broncos of old - a team that will be up and down, a difficult opponent when in form but not serious trophy winners. Cas, Hull FC and Hull KR are just going to be playing for the lower playoff spots. Hull FC's new chairman seems to be making ambitious statements but it might take a while before they become trophy contenders, the signing of Tony Martin hardly suggests they are going to make an all out assault on the title next year.

So I see 2012 much as I saw 2011. The SL and CC winners will come from the four of Leeds, Wigan, Warrington or Saints but it is hard to predict with certainty who it will be. IMO Saints have as much chance of winning one of the finals next season as any team, but unfortunately for Saints fans there is also a fair possibility they might make it to one or even both finals and lose again!

However the Jamie Lyon point above was interesting in that if any one of those four teams did make that type of signing they would jump to the front of the pecking order.

With the levelling of the teams now, the importance of a coach is becoming paramount. McGuire won last year with his dubious tactics turning a bunch of journeymen into trophy winners. Smith clearly has done a good job at Warrington. The second tier teams like cats Huddersfield or hull could all be coached into winning trophies. The salary cap is really biting and opening the field more than ever

We are ahead of the game. We have already blooded young players in key positions in a Grand Final. Granted, it was a heartbreak for them but they will have learned such a lot from that experience to take forward with them. I hope they all learn to copy Makinson's attitude, which I thought epitomised what Simmons wanted from the team as a whole, particularly in his determination to score that amazing around-Brent-Webb try.

Not being picky but, I think there's 12 or 13 in scholarship from Brook. There's some from Orrell, a couple from Clock and I think there's some from out of the area. I recon saints will dominate the north west matches at this age group.

Wigan have produced great kids each and every year of the sixteen we've been running SL.

Number of titles: 2.

Well exactly. Having a great academy and producing good quality youngsters is a big part of producing a title winning side, but like I say it's only part of the process. The culture, coach and experienced heads at the club all have an equally huge part to play. Up to Madge's arrival we were always struggling in at least one of those area's if not more.

The funny thing is Wigan have been far more successful at producing players in positions which are absolutely crucial to winning the title (mostly the pack). Aside from Graham (and possibly Clough, who is half-back row half prop) our academy has failed miserably insofar as big men are concerned. I'm not saying Wigan are producing world beaters - but they have consistently churned out solid, grafting props which are the platform for any side with title-winning aspirations. How many quality back row forwards have Saints produced in the past twenty years. How many have Wigan produced?

If SL was decided by academy strength alone Wigan would have probably won three times as many titles. The fact that they have won only two suggests having a good academy is not and never will be essential.

Couldn't disagree more, an absolutely ridiculous statement IMO. Bringing through your own quality youngsters is vital to a teams chances. Just look at the sides that have won and dominated the SL competition since it's inception. Bradford for starters brought through some terrific youngsters at the time of their success. From Fielden and Pryce to Peacock and Deacon.

The current Leeds team are where they are because of the superb group of youngsters they brought through together earlier this decade.

St Helens wouldn't be where they are today if the likes of Wellens and Cunigham hadn't come through your system, and you certainly wouldn't be continuing to challenge for honors this year if your academy hadn't brought through the likes of Gaskel, Lomax and Foster.

It's the fact that the lower sides in SL struggle to produce good quality youngsters in any great numbers that stops them progressing up the table.

Well, let's test your theory. Out of St. Helens and Wigan which club - over the entirety of SL - has produced more SL quality players. I'd say Wigan. I'd even stretch to a tie. But nothing more.

Number of Wigan titles: 2.
Number of Saints titles: 5

Indeed, I'd argue Wigan have produced more SL players than Leeds and Bradford.

Number of Leeds titles: 5
Number of Bulls titles: 4.

I'm not denigrating youth development. But to suggest such is "essential" does not seem in line with results.

It's a huge part but not the only part of creating a title winning side IMO. It was the other parts of the jigsaw that Wigan lacked that probably cost us a title or two. The constant chopping and changing of coach and in turn poor culture at the club was more than detrimental to our chances.

Your almost suggesting that Saints could still challenge for honors next year if the likes of Lomax, Gaskel and Makinson hadn't come through your academy. Something I severely doubt. As I would Wigan's chances if we took the likes of Sam, Joel, Charnley and Mossop out of the Wigan side.

Bradford are on the slide in part because of their distinctly average youngsters coming through, coupled with a few other things of course. Saints like Bradford have lost a lot of their best and most experienced players of late, but because of your far superior academy you've been able to overcome their departures.

Really? Props coming through their academy? I'm struggling to think of many as most of their props have come from others clubs e.g. Platt (which was over twenty years ago anyway), Cowie, O'Connor. There may have been plenty coming through during the history days but that production line has dried up and not just there but everywhere.



Perhaps a better way of assessing the "essential-ness" of academies would be to evaluate the performance of teams with weaker academies in comparison to stronger ones. You can use the pies in your argument but why didn't you use Leeds who had a strong academy system which has recently reaped rewards? By using the pies and not considering others you are presenting only a snippet of fact which isn't necessarily truth.

Let's not kid ourselves.

Madge came in with a specific gameplan (one which nearly every coach in super league has a dig at when they say ''and they play the game in the right way'' when referring to saints/warrington/leeds), but none of the methods he brought in were maintable or condusive to long term success, and couldn't be executed without experienced heads in certain positions, hence the reason he has barely bloodied any new youngsters this season. Already this season teams began to work it out.

I fully expect normal service to resumed next season, in fact it already has this season as wigan failed to make the grand final.

Well you've had madge for 2 years an already a new coach is coming in. How long do you reckon wane will last?

Poor culture you say?

The thing with culture is it's something built over time. Madge can't just come in wave his magic wand and alter the culture at the club.

He came in and gave you a gameplan to win a title. Now it's past it's sell by date.

Of course they've dried up. But within that context Wigan have hardly been prop-less. Again, I'm not talking about the likes of a Kevin Ward or a Graham. But the likes of O'Carroll, Prescott and (probably) Mossop are enough to give any club a solid platform on which to build. And there can be no question that Wigan have produced far better second row forwards than Saints since the arrival of SL.



I think you need to familiarize yourself with the definition of [url=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/essentialessential[/url

[i"1. Absolutely necessary".[/i

Let's substitute those words into my original statement: [i"having a good academy is not and never will be absolutely necessary (to winning SL)". [/i

There is no force I am aware of that guarantees any top academy side future success. On the other hand, it is quite conceivable that a team with a modestly gifted academy could go on to win SL with the aid of a good coach, plenty of money and a bit of luck. How many kids have Huddersfield produced - yet they were not far away from a couple of Challenge Cups and were realistic title contenders this season.

Let's return to Wigan for a moment. A club which has probably produced more SL players than any other club. This is a team which has not only underachieved in SL - it came within a hair's breadth (after some crooked transfer dealings) of being RELEGATED.

Right, I've deleted a boat-load of posts in order to clean this thread up and make it more readable. In future I suggest that if you feel that someone is attempting to troll you do one (or both) of two things a) be the bigger person and ignore the post causing offence and rather than get involved in a petty slanging match and b) use the report system to offer your opinion that the post is a trolling attempt. HOWEVER before doing b), make sure that you have read and considered the post and can offer a reasoned complaint rather than flying off the handle and complaining simply because you disagree with something the poster has written, it is far easier for us to delete one offending post than half a thread.

Now stay on topic. Any posts here in response to this will be deleted.

TS

Thinking about it - if there is one absolute necessity in Rugby League that will give you an outstanding chance of securing a Grand Final it is - [imoney[/i.

Prescott will probably stay but O'Carroll? He's a fringe first 17 at best. Mossop is a good shout but we've produced Graham and Clough during the same time.



Change the essential to critical and the argument remains. You're more likely to be there or thereabouts if you have a better academy system which you could say is evidenced by the fact the previous six Grand Finals have all contained at least one team with a significantly better than average academy system (this year's having more homegrown players than any other previous Grand Final). There will always be exceptions to the rule but as a general principle a good academy is arguably the strongest foundation for success. Having some money behind you may help but it is only a short-term solution because of the nature of the cap i.e. retention of players is normally cheaper than an acquisition so the creation of a good youth programme becomes a key investment area for clubs with money e.g. Warrington.

How many players have come through Wigans academy and got more SL titles than the club itself? Bet theres a few. Long, Gilmour, Forshaw off the top of my head. Definatly a few with more cup medals too.

Scott Naylor?