You give more penalties away when you lose the collision, so it can be a snowball effect.

You start to lose the collision, you get on the back foot, you give penalties away. You do more tackling, you get fatigued, you start losing the collision.

Spot on. Refs have a natural bias towards the side winning collisions - and rightly so. If you batter a runner you earn the right to control him a little longer, if the ball carrier wins he should be allowed to play the ball quickly.
Best way to win a collision with the ball is to avoid it. The best forwards have good feet and are difficult to get a big hit on. Gareth Ellis was very good, so are JJB and Ablett on a good day.

A hapless defeat to a mediocre club like Widnes certainly will have the McDermott critics coming out of the woodwork.

A McDermott team speciality of a complete regular season capitulation look a possibility again.

But I will reserve judgement until we get Hall and Briscoe back.

I hope we were not holiding either back for the CC game, because it's important for us to keep out lead at the top this year

Hall get his cast off tomorrow so if he gets the ok he could play on Saturday.

Briscoe is still around 6 weeks away I believe.

Stevie Ward twisted an ankle today but didn't seem too bad after the game. Not heard why JJB missed out this week, he might've been not risked with next week in mind. Sinfield, even before today's game I didn't think he'd get picked but regardless of the result and performance, that he would play in the cup game next week.

I don't get this idea of players "holding back" for the Cup game. If you're picked and getting (very well) paid to put on a shirt, you should be busting a gut to deliver your best available performance every week.

If you're picking and choosing when to turn it on, you should be out the door.

We might be playing half the Academy on Saturday then Andy.

It has been said repeatedly, but I'll say it again.

I dont believe McD has the foggiest what his best team is. Which quite frankly is pretty damming of a head coach.

No players should need resting at this point in the season. You can't blame the cup as we've been rubbish since spanking saints.

How can players play as a team when they are always having different players either side of them?

It's not a case of "holding back" per say but come on, if you watch team sports you know teams have often taken their eye of the ball in the league when cup matches have come around. Wigan basically handed the 2013 LLS to Hudds once they got to the Semis of the cup. Warrington still had plenty of time to make the top 8 in 2009 but failed to do so but did win the CC. In football, teams that have floated around the bottom of the league have made finals, some even winning despite being relegated like Birimingham and Wigan. Both Liverpool and Chelsea won the Champions League despite finishing outside the top 4.

The comparison with football is tricky as they often have midweek games and generally play more games than rl and do a lot more travelling, especially for European games, albeit it has a less physical involvement.

Your rl comparisons are also aimed at the latter stages of the cup which by proxy is also into the second half of the season. Neither apply to our game on Saturday. Quote honestly, if top level professional players can't manage one game a week little more than 12 weeks into the season then we have problems.

We have problems. And by we I mean the sport of Rugby League.

The players are too big and too strong.

Our's do not seem too big or strong at the moment

I know, at this rate we might only finish 2nd.

Thanks to the ridiculously convoluted and crowded fixture calendar, we're not even half way through the regular season yet.

Leeds still have Wigan to play three times, Saints twice, Huddersfield and Warrington once each. On current form, would you back them to win any of those?

As I said wait until the split and they have to play the top teams week in week out.

Yeah I would, considering we drew with one of them 2 weeks ago and beat the champions very easily 4 weeks ago. In fact we've beaten all but one of them already this season.

With Briscoe, Hall, Kylie and Sinfield to come back i'm backing Leeds to go on and finish top quite easily, especially with the number of home games we've got to play. Whether we can go on and win the GF is another matter but it really wouldn't be a shock, would it?

The difference is some teams are getting stronger - Wigan, Huddersfield and Warrington whilst some appear to be weakening Leeds & Saints - there is a long way to go yet. I can't see Leeds finishing top - even before the break never mind after the split. The way the season is now configured doesn't help an ageing team like Leeds at all. Can they win the GF yes, it would be a major shock if they did.

Well there's no surprise in you being negative and writing Leeds off, again..... But how are Leeds weakening? We're top of the league despite losing Hall, Briscoe, Kylie and Sinfield.

Leeds have lost 2 and drawn 1 of their last 6 games.
Huddersfield have lost 3 and drawn 1 of their last 6 games.
Wire have lost 3 of their last 6 games
Saints have lost 3 of their last 6 games.
Wigan have won 5 of their last 6 games, most of which were at home against mid-lower table clubs.

Yeah they're all massively outplaying the "weakening" Leeds & Saints.

Or to spin that another way:

Leeds have won 1, lost 2 and drawn 1 of their last 4 games and have no wins in their last 3.
Huddersfield have won 3 and drawn 1 of their last 4 games
Wigan have won all their last 4 games
Saints have won 2 and lost 2 of their last 4 games
Warrington have won 2 and lost 2 of their last 4 games

Now can you see how those teams are outperforming Leeds?

Factor in that over their last four games Leeds have only really looked in decent form for two spells of forty minutes (the opening halves at Huddersfield & Saints) and otherwise have been on the back foot, and can you see now how difficult it looks to see them holding on to top spot over the next 9 rounds?

Every team in the competition have injuries. Pointing to losing your first choice wingers, an over the hill prop and a player who has been left out for non-injury related matters is grasping at straws. Saints won the Grand Final last year despite being in a much worse position injury wise.

Not spinning anything, I just went back 6 games to show recent form. But why 4, why not 1? That wouldn't work as well would it...

But whatever, if you want to write off the greatest Leeds team in the club's history after a couple of defeats whilst missing a few key players then you go for it! It's what this board does best afterall and what it's done best throughout the most successful period in the club's history.

Anyone would think we were in the bottom half of the table, like some clowns on here predicted pre-season.

And got their s handed to them on a plate on more than one occasion too.

Because four is more recent than six, and one would be unrepresentative.

Going back six instead means you include scratchy wins against a depleted Salford and the worst team in the competition (who still managed to put 22 points on us at home). Something you were quick to dismiss when interpreting Wigan's recent run of wins. If you're going to attach weight to particular wins or losses, at least do it consistently across all teams.

Would you say Leeds' form is improving or getting worse? Would you say Wigan, Warrington & Huddersfield are improving or getting worse?

The key personnel are getting older the side has been strengthen significantly so unless the quality of the league is regressing quicker than Leeds are I am unsure how logically you can be so confident of them achieving something they haven't done since 2012?

I said it is possible but there will be very few people expecting it to happen

I would say we have hit the predictable mid season flat spot. No team will go through a season theses days hitting top form in every match. Certain of the old guard and some of the young ones have lost a bit of early season edge. Add to that injuries to key personnel and that can make the difference. We need to struggle through the lost form and hope that the return of Hall, JJB, Kylie and eventually Briscoe will kick start the season in time for a strong finish. In a way we could do without an extended Cup run this season.

Oh. So it has to be 4 then because it helps to back up your point, I get it now. What about the last 3, is that allowed? Obviously it can't be 6 because we played Wakefield and no one else (Saints & Wire) have played them in the last 6 weeks and Wigan didn't play a depleted and totally uninterested Hull KR a couple of weeks ago...

Cannot it not be 1 because we all know you're only ever as good as your last game - apparently.

What about......



Or doesn't that count because Leeds have lost 1 more game than their closest rivals recently?