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| Quote ="kirkstaller"If there is any change, such as an improved offer, then yes, I will gladly reap the rewards. But then any trade unionist who believes in pay equality would agree with me, wouldn't they?
And if I do end up working overtime this weekend in order to effectively cover for striking union members next Wednesday, then I'll agree with you on that one also. I am lining my own pockets. But surely that's what trade unionists and striking members are doing, fighting for a few extra quid? Don't try and tell me that people will be walking out of work due to a sense of brotherhood and altruism? No, they're wanting to keep their snouts in the trough.
People may call it a betrayal, but the only people I have to answer to are my family.'"
this day of action surely is not about lining pockets its about cuts to pensions,paying more for longer and getting LESS
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| Quote ="lionarmour87"this day of action surely is not about lining pockets its about cuts to pensions,paying more for longer and getting LESS'"
Less relative to what though? It's still a good deal. Just not quite as good as it was.
Anyway, what are pensions about if not lining pockets? The reason I pay into my pension is to try to ensure my pockets remain lined later in life.
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| Quote ="lionarmour87"this day of action surely is not about lining pockets its about cuts to pensions,paying more for longer and getting LESS'"
I'm not too chuffed about it myself, but I'm not so narrow-minded that I don't appreciate that it is still a relatively good deal.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"I'm not too chuffed about it myself, but I'm not so narrow-minded that I don't appreciate that it is still a relatively good deal.'"
Its your choice and like I said I would not show you any animosity for working and I am getting a moderate final salary pension ,but it would be less than moderate if it was paid at an average.
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| Quote ="El Diablo"Less relative to what though? It's still a good deal. Just not quite as good as it was.
Anyway, what are pensions about if not lining pockets? The reason I pay into my pension is to try to ensure my pockets remain lined later in life.'"
It all depends on how you define lining pockets .I would call lining of pockets by getting money by doing something shady,like the bankers did when they caused the finacial crisis.
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| Not read all the post, but do know that in teaching, staff are not allowed to be brought in to replace striking members of staff.
I am striking too btw.
Edit: After having read some of the thread, the issue for me is this. It is not about crossing the picket lline, it is about covering someone elses job.
Sorry but that is a big no no for me.
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| I support any individuals right to strike.
I support any individual's right to not strike.
I wonder what difference this strike action will actually make?
I wonder if the pension's remained at their current level, how many people will have to lose their jobs to fund them?
When there isn't enough money to sustain the current situation, then the situation must change.
What I haven't seen from the Union leaders is an alternative plan, which will protect both the current terms and conditions of the workforce and not cost the country a (currently) unsustainable amount in return. Once I do see one, I might have a bit more sympathy with the unions. I already sympathise with those who are at risk of losing their job or having their terms eroded.
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| every worker has their right to withdraw their labour
every worker has a right to work
the only thing that matters is what is right for you. We all have different thought,ideas,motives and reasons to do what e do and say when it comes to breaking a strike and crossing a pickett line.
things to think of
Iam a greedy barsteward for taking the kings shilling why do i need the money?
can i afford to loose money will my family be able to live and eat?
will i be in debt to anyone?
what do my colleagues think of me when its all over?
is the job safe if we loose?
will i be out of work?
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| Quote ="batleyrhino"I support any individuals right to strike.
I support any individual's right to not strike.
I wonder what difference this strike action will actually make?
I wonder if the pension's remained at their current level, how many people will have to lose their jobs to fund them?
When there isn't enough money to sustain the current situation, then the situation must change.
What I haven't seen from the Union leaders is an alternative plan, which will protect both the current terms and conditions of the workforce and not cost the country a (currently) unsustainable amount in return. Once I do see one, I might have a bit more sympathy with the unions. I already sympathise with those who are at risk of losing their job or having their terms eroded.'"
My union, UCU, has put forward alternative proposals, it did several months ago. I would imagine other unions did the same. Our pension scheme is extremely well run & financially healthy. Because those in the private sector, many on much higher salaries, chose to put their wages in extremely poorly managed schemes we are expected by equally suffer. What a sad state we have slipped into.
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| Tigertot, is there a link to the proposals so I could take a look at them and decide for myself if I think it would work?
I'm not against Unions, they can be a very powerful tool for protecting those who are unable to protect themselves, however I do have a (possibly misguided) view that the Unions have become self serving, politically motiviated vehicles for the individuals leading them, and have lost touch with the prinicple they exist for. I suppose you could say the same about the current and last few governments that this country has had too...
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Quote ="batleyrhino"Tigertot, is there a link to the proposals so I could take a look at them and decide for myself if I think it would work?
I'm not against Unions, they can be a very powerful tool for protecting those who are unable to protect themselves, however I do have a (possibly misguided) view that the [uUnions have become self serving, politically motiviated vehicles for the individuals leading them, and have lost touch with the prinicple they exist for[/u. I suppose you could say the same about the current and last few governments that this country has had too...'"
That's hardly surprising given the example set by Chief Executives & Boards of Directors.
Talk about self-serving hypocrites!!!
For those in any doubt I suggest you look at this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15827683
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Quote ="batleyrhino"Tigertot, is there a link to the proposals so I could take a look at them and decide for myself if I think it would work?
I'm not against Unions, they can be a very powerful tool for protecting those who are unable to protect themselves, however I do have a (possibly misguided) view that the [uUnions have become self serving, politically motiviated vehicles for the individuals leading them, and have lost touch with the prinicple they exist for[/u. I suppose you could say the same about the current and last few governments that this country has had too...'"
That's hardly surprising given the example set by Chief Executives & Boards of Directors.
Talk about self-serving hypocrites!!!
For those in any doubt I suggest you look at this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15827683
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| Slightly off topic, but I saw some of the news yesterday talking about Top Bosses pay & bonuses and I was dismayed at the poor standard of journalism / balanced view that was given. They even trotted out a hair dresser who seemed to think that 'working in a bank was not that hard' when talking about the head or Barclays, and seemed to think their jobs were equivalent because she was standing up all day. Many people don't seem to realise that the job market is precisely that, a market. You aren't paid in proportion to how unpleasant the job is to do, its generally in proportion to how skilled you are at teh things that matter, and how many other people there are with a similar skillset (or the ability to attain that skill level).
One interesting piece was that people didn't think Top Bosses should earn as much as footballers. Whilst I do think that both are paid obscene amounts of money I can see how they are equivalent. Both sets of people are in a position they are because they have shown talent that few others have. They are also lucky enough that their talent enables a wider organisation to generate huge revenues. Its these reasons why they are paid so much, becuase even though they are paid obscene amounts of money, they generate many times that through doing the job.
If you answer phones in an office, or cut hair, or clean bins, it may not be that pleasant, but your contribution to that company does not have so much impact on the profit of that company as someone in a higher position.
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| I see two separate yet intertwined issues in the point you raise above OF. It is clear that the high pay levels of some executives is clearly damaging to the morale of their workforces, and is counter produtive to growth, this is without raising the issue of their value in terms of the work the executives are actually doing. The system that allows people to entirely self regulate their pay is a flawed one.
The second issue, is the one which I intended to focus on, and this is one which in my mind exposes the Unions for what they really are. A union is in place to protect all of its members, not a certain section. When a union insists on unrealistic pay (or pension) settlements, it is inevitably not protecting those who will lose their jobs as a result, and therefore fundamentally missing the point of it's own existance.
The irony that those who lead some of the unions are now equally as culpable for the current situation as some of the government with which they bicker is not lost on me...
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| Quote ="leicester_rhino"Slightly off topic, but I saw some of the news yesterday talking about Top Bosses pay & bonuses and I was dismayed at the poor standard of journalism / balanced view that was given. They even trotted out a hair dresser who seemed to think that 'working in a bank was not that hard' when talking about the head or Barclays, and seemed to think their jobs were equivalent because she was standing up all day. Many people don't seem to realise that the job market is precisely that, a market. You aren't paid in proportion to how unpleasant the job is to do, its generally in proportion to how skilled you are at teh things that matter, and how many other people there are with a similar skillset (or the ability to attain that skill level).
One interesting piece was that people didn't think Top Bosses should earn as much as footballers. Whilst I do think that both are paid obscene amounts of money I can see how they are equivalent. Both sets of people are in a position they are because they have shown talent that few others have. They are also lucky enough that their talent enables a wider organisation to generate huge revenues. Its these reasons why they are paid so much, becuase even though they are paid obscene amounts of money, they generate many times that through doing the job.
If you answer phones in an office, or cut hair, or clean bins, it may not be that pleasant, but your contribution to that company does not have so much impact on the profit of that company as someone in a higher position.'"
A problem widely discussed on TV yesterday was that renumeration for CEO's of FTSE 250 companies bears no relation to company performance any more. Any hairdressers or footballer not doing their job very well would soon see their income drop. Companies whose profits and turnover fall, or share value drops, often continue to richly reward the top people who have overseen this.
Back to the picket line - I remember being on a 3 day strike a few years back now, when we took a local vote whether to support a national dispute. All involved (about 10 I think) supported the action. One reneged, and went into work. It caused a lot of bad feeling, that individual was largely ignored afterwards. So don't only think of the short term benefit or loss, consider possible longer term consequences.
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Quote ="batleyrhino"Tigertot, is there a link to the proposals so I could take a look at them and decide for myself if I think it would work?
I'm not against Unions, they can be a very powerful tool for protecting those who are unable to protect themselves, however I do have a (possibly misguided) view that the Unions have become self serving, politically motiviated vehicles for the individuals leading them, and have lost touch with the prinicple they exist for. I suppose you could say the same about the current and last few governments that this country has had too...'"
I found this link: recourse.org.uk/ucu-warns-of-ind ... d-through/
I haven't followed the other links through so do not know whether it will give you what you are after. UCU did set out its case several months ago, I read what they put forward & thought it a reasonable argument. I voted yes for action short of a strike, no for a strike. Both votes came out yes. I have continued to work 50 hours a week since, it is simply not possible to work to rule without it significantly affecting those I manage, the university (who are generally a fantastic employer) or the students we are here to support.
Undoubtedly there are some within unions who do see it as a political battle & an opportuntiy to bring down the capatilist state. But they are a massive minority. Very few work in HE to get rich. Our VC who runs an organisation with a half billion pounds turnover, made £35m profit last year, has >40,000 staff & students - the second biggest in the UK, only earns c£250k. Now I happen to think no-one should or needs to earn any more than that, but the vast majority of people here earn relatively low wages but accept that for job security, good holidays & a decent pension.
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Quote ="batleyrhino"Tigertot, is there a link to the proposals so I could take a look at them and decide for myself if I think it would work?
I'm not against Unions, they can be a very powerful tool for protecting those who are unable to protect themselves, however I do have a (possibly misguided) view that the Unions have become self serving, politically motiviated vehicles for the individuals leading them, and have lost touch with the prinicple they exist for. I suppose you could say the same about the current and last few governments that this country has had too...'"
I found this link: recourse.org.uk/ucu-warns-of-ind ... d-through/
I haven't followed the other links through so do not know whether it will give you what you are after. UCU did set out its case several months ago, I read what they put forward & thought it a reasonable argument. I voted yes for action short of a strike, no for a strike. Both votes came out yes. I have continued to work 50 hours a week since, it is simply not possible to work to rule without it significantly affecting those I manage, the university (who are generally a fantastic employer) or the students we are here to support.
Undoubtedly there are some within unions who do see it as a political battle & an opportuntiy to bring down the capatilist state. But they are a massive minority. Very few work in HE to get rich. Our VC who runs an organisation with a half billion pounds turnover, made £35m profit last year, has >40,000 staff & students - the second biggest in the UK, only earns c£250k. Now I happen to think no-one should or needs to earn any more than that, but the vast majority of people here earn relatively low wages but accept that for job security, good holidays & a decent pension.
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| Do NOT cross a picket line mate - although I understand your own personal situation - it just gives this pathetic excuse for a government the confidence to attack workers rights & working conditions, & WAGES.
History shows that privatisation & the Conservatives are only in it for themselves - keep united mate & PS JOIN a union because it is the only "Insurance Policy for Work" that you have & you never know when you might need its support !
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| Quote ="leicester_rhino"Slightly off topic, but I saw some of the news yesterday talking about Top Bosses pay & bonuses and I was dismayed at the poor standard of journalism / balanced view that was given. They even trotted out a hair dresser who seemed to think that 'working in a bank was not that hard' when talking about the head or Barclays, and seemed to think their jobs were equivalent because she was standing up all day. Many people don't seem to realise that the job market is precisely that, a market. You aren't paid in proportion to how unpleasant the job is to do, its generally in proportion to how skilled you are at teh things that matter, and how many other people there are with a similar skillset (or the ability to attain that skill level).
'"
Yes and no. It is a skill-dependent, but the market is rigged.
The skills valued for the CEO of a financial institution are the ability to manage a large corporation into short-term profit to produce share surges and executive bonusues. Even setting aside that *shouldn't* be the function of long-term capitalism, the fact that the profits were built on imaginary products, packaged and sold to pals with commission, then resold with more commission, along with Big4 Accountancy and Magic Circle Legal fees, then reinsured with more fees and commission, then sold to the patsy pension fund managers, at which points it becomes clear that they didn't really exist and the funds lose out and the average public and private pension investor loses out, and all this imaginary fee money is on the books of the banks, providing inflated salary and bonuses until, magically, it isn't and the books turn red because so much imaginary money has turned into real money in selected pockets, and the government has to step in at *another* massive cost to the taxpayer, and because there's still no effective regulation the banks rebuild another house of cards and repeat, with variations, to fade.
That's not a real market. It's a trick. Another part of the trick is in convincing governments that *everything* they do is so vital to the wider economy. Some of it is, some of it isn't. Some of it is positively dangerous.
The issue of executive pay and CEO skillsets is entirely different in a large business that you build up yourself, or one which actually makes real products that people want to buy. But the chief skills of the current wave of bankers are 1) to be clubbable 2) to work a con-game within that club. Traders also need to have a lot of stamina and to be brutally self-interested, but they're not uncommon skills and, in the latter case, perhaps not that desirable.
So, yes, that's more skills than a hairdresser, I suppose. But not as many as a legitimate businessman, or a Soros or Buffett taking calculated risks with their own money, or a surgeon, headmaster or engineer. Surcharge the f***ers. If it wasn't for them (and the fund managers) there wouldn't be any pension strikes because pensions wouldn't be screwed.
/rant
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| Quote ="vernon"A problem widely discussed on TV yesterday was that renumeration for CEO's of FTSE 250 companies bears no relation to company performance any more. Any hairdressers or footballer not doing their job very well would soon see their income drop. Companies whose profits and turnover fall, or share value drops, often continue to richly reward the top people who have overseen this.
'"
I think that's the real issue with some of the salaries and payments at the top levels of these companies. I am happy to accept that having your hand on the rudder of an organisation like a major international bank is a complex and stressful job (a big bank has a larger economy that many countries), and that their top executives are likely to earn salaries that would make Richie Ramrod's head spin. Fine, doesn't bother me. I am a little mystified as to how their salaries and bonuses cease to be linked to the performance of the ship they're supposed to be steering.
When it becomes a matter of public interest is when the banks are bailed out if they fail, at the taxpayer's expense. That doesn't happen with football either, so I have more interest in what top bankers are paid than I do in what top footballers are paid. Footballers belong alongside film stars and musicians. They're in the entertainment business and their financial success or failure has little impact on the rest of us. Banking carries a societal responsibility.
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| Many footballers, musicians & film stars are paid obscene amounts of money, which I strongly object to. But on a regular basis I see them perform their talent, or lack of it & feel qualified to comment whether they are worth it. I am yet to see any banker demonstrate his/her talent, I am merely told repeatedly that they must be paid huge sums due to their responsibility or they would take their talent elsewhere. No-one, no-one, needs the amounts of money being identified. If they are so selfish & greedy to not realise how inequitous it is, especially in the current climate, they have no place in society.
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Quote ="tigertot"I found this link: recourse.org.uk/ucu-warns-of-ind ... d-through/
I haven't followed the other links through so do not know whether it will give you what you are after. UCU did set out its case several months ago, I read what they put forward & thought it a reasonable argument. I voted yes for action short of a strike, no for a strike. Both votes came out yes. I have continued to work 50 hours a week since, it is simply not possible to work to rule without it significantly affecting those I manage, the university (who are generally a fantastic employer) or the students we are here to support.
Undoubtedly there are some within unions who do see it as a political battle & an opportuntiy to bring down the capatilist state. But they are a massive minority. Very few work in HE to get rich. Our VC who runs an organisation with a half billion pounds turnover, made £35m profit last year, has >40,000 staff & students - the second biggest in the UK, only earns c£250k. Now I happen to think no-one should or needs to earn any more than that, but the vast majority of people here earn relatively low wages but accept that for job security, good holidays & a decent pension.'"
the uni only made that profit via the VLS scheme and have also another surplus of £7million too, they basically cut 800 jobs via allowing people to sell them their jobs for 18months gross pay. but mr arthur is ok on his £250 k a year salary and his chauffer driven audi and his flights back down to his home in southampton on a weekend i bet he doesn't pay for his flights does he? he claimed he didn't want to put tuition fees up then what did he do? put them up to the maximum of £9k a year!!
don't make him out to be a hero when people on here know the score.
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Quote ="tigertot"I found this link: recourse.org.uk/ucu-warns-of-ind ... d-through/
I haven't followed the other links through so do not know whether it will give you what you are after. UCU did set out its case several months ago, I read what they put forward & thought it a reasonable argument. I voted yes for action short of a strike, no for a strike. Both votes came out yes. I have continued to work 50 hours a week since, it is simply not possible to work to rule without it significantly affecting those I manage, the university (who are generally a fantastic employer) or the students we are here to support.
Undoubtedly there are some within unions who do see it as a political battle & an opportuntiy to bring down the capatilist state. But they are a massive minority. Very few work in HE to get rich. Our VC who runs an organisation with a half billion pounds turnover, made £35m profit last year, has >40,000 staff & students - the second biggest in the UK, only earns c£250k. Now I happen to think no-one should or needs to earn any more than that, but the vast majority of people here earn relatively low wages but accept that for job security, good holidays & a decent pension.'"
the uni only made that profit via the VLS scheme and have also another surplus of £7million too, they basically cut 800 jobs via allowing people to sell them their jobs for 18months gross pay. but mr arthur is ok on his £250 k a year salary and his chauffer driven audi and his flights back down to his home in southampton on a weekend i bet he doesn't pay for his flights does he? he claimed he didn't want to put tuition fees up then what did he do? put them up to the maximum of £9k a year!!
don't make him out to be a hero when people on here know the score.
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| Quote ="totalloiner"the uni only made that profit via the VLS scheme and have also another surplus of £7million too, they basically cut 800 jobs via allowing people to sell them their jobs for 18months gross pay. but mr arthur is ok on his £250 k a year salary and his chauffer driven audi and his flights back down to his home in southampton on a weekend i bet he doesn't pay for his flights does he? he claimed he didn't want to put tuition fees up then what did he do? put them up to the maximum of £9k a year!!
don't make him out to be a hero when people on here know the score.'"
Where have I done that? I don't actually particulalry like him that much. What I was doing was demonstrating that someone can run a very successful huge business without obscene remuneration. I have no idea if he pays for his weekly flights, I would guess not. But that doesn't bother me, I am more bothered about the attitude that it is ok fly such relatively short distances on a regular basis. But he offsets the carbon so that's ok.
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| On the subject of the strikes we have all agreed that there should be the right to strike and the right not to strike. However should we really allow a business or indeed the whole country to be brought to a halt by a vote in favour of doing so by a minority of the workforce and population?
The UNISON ballot had a 29% turnout equating to only 23% of the workforce voting for the strike
GMB had a 33% turnout equating to 26% of the total workforce voting for the strike
UCATTS had 27% turnout meaning just 22% of the total workforce voted for to strike
UNITE had a 31% turnout equating to around 25% of the total workforce
These figures are hardly a ringing endorsement for strike action for what can only be regarded selfish action by a minority, when negotiations are still going on to change what were overgenerous and unsustainable pension terms even in the good times let alone in the current and forseeable future economic climate.
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| ^ And have a look at turn outs for general elections, about the same.
Thats why the Governemtn haven't made a sound about the ballots, they know they'd be on a looser
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| Quote ="tigertot"Where have I done that? I don't actually particulalry like him that much. What I was doing was demonstrating that someone can run a very successful huge business without obscene remuneration. I have no idea if he pays for his weekly flights, I would guess not. But that doesn't bother me, I am more bothered about the attitude that it is ok fly such relatively short distances on a regular basis. But he offsets the carbon so that's ok.'"
I would question how well run a not-for-profit organisation that makes a £35M profit is.
All Universities seek to build up a surplus, for a rainy day as it were, but adding £35M a year to it suggests to me that either students or research funding bodies are getting short-changed somewhere...
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"If there is any change, such as an improved offer, then yes, I will gladly reap the rewards. But then any trade unionist who believes in pay equality would agree with me, wouldn't they?
And if I do end up working overtime this weekend in order to effectively cover for striking union members next Wednesday, then I'll agree with you on that one also. I am lining my own pockets. But surely that's what trade unionists and striking members are doing, fighting for a few extra quid? Don't try and tell me that people will be walking out of work due to a sense of brotherhood and altruism? No, they're wanting to keep their snouts in the trough.
People may call it a betrayal, but the only people I have to answer to are my family.'"
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